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Gull ID/ Kookherd, Iran (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter ghaffar
- Start date
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello
In all photos are the same birds.
Pic1: left-right: Armenian - Caspian
pic2: same Caspian
pic3: Armenian- Caspian
Omar
In all photos are the same birds.
Pic1: left-right: Armenian - Caspian
pic2: same Caspian
pic3: Armenian- Caspian
Omar
lou salomon
the birdonist
i don't see any armenian in there. to me they all look like steppe gulls (barabensis) but it would be hard to exclude eastern cachinnans on these pics.
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello
There is good comparison of both L:Arm. R:Cas. in jizz, bill, and size.
Omar
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello Lou
Please accept my apology, I did not but the "anger face mark" on my previous post, it was dropped off when I was writing, usually I do not use any of these symbols in my threads.
Omar
Please accept my apology, I did not but the "anger face mark" on my previous post, it was dropped off when I was writing, usually I do not use any of these symbols in my threads.
Omar
lou salomon
the birdonist
no offence taken, omar. still, the left hand bird simply is a female while the other two birds look like males - accounting for the different jizz. a good argument against armenian is the palish eye in the left bird, another one is the pointed bill tip - usually extremely blunt tipped in armenian.
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Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Thank you Lou, However, I do not take it as such a difference between sexes in Caspian/Steppe in contrast with Armenian. In pic#1 there is a quite different in Jizz, head, bill shape.
L: is rather short and thin in comparison with the opposite which is heavy and stout, the shape is quite different between both. Despite the picture was taken in poor light (Sunset) it seems that the L: bird has a hue of a sub-T black ring on the bill. Also you would see the molt of the wing the left bird has already replaced the 5th P ( as you can see the P5 tip on the wing) which indicated that it was started molting in late Aug-early Sep. which is good time for Armenian ( the size of P10 worm mirror is ruled out in R: bird), the legs in L: bird is bright yellower than both M & R. Seeing fine brown streaks in hindneck of L bird also good for Arm.
The status of the Steppe Gull barabensis in Iran is uncertain , it is not recorded yet her in Iraq , and I suspect it is still uncertain in Iran?
During migration in inland large lakes ( both Armenian and Caspian regularly found in mixed flocks at northern Gulf - which IMO is the case her)
I'm attaching two photos I took for the head Jizz and bill for subadult Armenian and Caspian in same territory in Iraq ( both has pale iris and quite same blunt bill, but differ in lower mandible and gonyes), may they will help?
Omar
L: is rather short and thin in comparison with the opposite which is heavy and stout, the shape is quite different between both. Despite the picture was taken in poor light (Sunset) it seems that the L: bird has a hue of a sub-T black ring on the bill. Also you would see the molt of the wing the left bird has already replaced the 5th P ( as you can see the P5 tip on the wing) which indicated that it was started molting in late Aug-early Sep. which is good time for Armenian ( the size of P10 worm mirror is ruled out in R: bird), the legs in L: bird is bright yellower than both M & R. Seeing fine brown streaks in hindneck of L bird also good for Arm.
The status of the Steppe Gull barabensis in Iran is uncertain , it is not recorded yet her in Iraq , and I suspect it is still uncertain in Iran?
During migration in inland large lakes ( both Armenian and Caspian regularly found in mixed flocks at northern Gulf - which IMO is the case her)
I'm attaching two photos I took for the head Jizz and bill for subadult Armenian and Caspian in same territory in Iraq ( both has pale iris and quite same blunt bill, but differ in lower mandible and gonyes), may they will help?
Omar
Attachments
lou salomon
the birdonist
hi ghaffar, omar.
these birds all look to belong to one species. and they're not armenian gulls. neither of them has a substantial dark bill mark, neither of them has a short stubby bill as in armenian but more the elongated shape of central asian taxa like cachinnans and barabensis. they probably are to be narrowed to these two species. the fact that they appaear rel. early in southern iran may favour an eastern type of cachinnans which they look perfect for. but also the small one on the left. again, all have a similar longish body structure, pointed bill tip, esp. in the female type (left) - in contrast with the female type armenicus: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/5cy/5cysept30.html.
there are more than 3 birds in these pics, the left one in pic 3 also a female type, and also a very cachinnans-like bird. in fact the 2 birds in pic 3 both look like caspian gulls on shape, jizz etc.
bill base is a bit paler which also fits these central asian taxa.
most armenian have darkish iris, in steppe and caspian gull it varies a lot.
all three birds in pic 1 have about the same shade of dull yellow in leg colour. all 3 have the same shade of grey in mantle - if they were armenian + caspian the difference in mantle colour would be visible - they stand in the same lateral angle to the camera. all three are in the same primary moult state: p6 being fully grown and p10 retained, a rel large p10 mirror is visible with a rel. thin subterminal band (again, all wrong for armenian).
as for probability: i'm sure steppe gull passes through both iran and iraq since it winters widely in the gulf but also in western india. kookherd being not too far from the coast and in a riverine wetland area suitable for many wetland birds (great pics on your blog, ghaffar!). cachinnans could well be there, also.
in northwestern iran the situation might be different: the largest armenian colony is in iran (i hope it still is!), if lake urmia will survive: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/02cynov.html
cachinnans usually has less yellow legs in autumn, barabensis more constantly yellow. then, the birds seem to be a bit too dark mantled for cachinnans (but light is tricky). head striation ist just fine for cachinnans - fine and scattered. longish head with an angle in the nape in the male types is also typical for caspian. so - these should come from somewhere between caspian sea, kazakhstan or russia - but: if cachinnans or barabensis, this is a good question, even in their reproductive zones. there seems to be some interbreeding.
a nice site to compare all these taxa is this one: http://www.birdsofsaudiarabia.com/p/large-gull-id.html
check also these pics: http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.de/2010/05/steppe-gulls-in-uae.html
all the best,
these birds all look to belong to one species. and they're not armenian gulls. neither of them has a substantial dark bill mark, neither of them has a short stubby bill as in armenian but more the elongated shape of central asian taxa like cachinnans and barabensis. they probably are to be narrowed to these two species. the fact that they appaear rel. early in southern iran may favour an eastern type of cachinnans which they look perfect for. but also the small one on the left. again, all have a similar longish body structure, pointed bill tip, esp. in the female type (left) - in contrast with the female type armenicus: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/5cy/5cysept30.html.
there are more than 3 birds in these pics, the left one in pic 3 also a female type, and also a very cachinnans-like bird. in fact the 2 birds in pic 3 both look like caspian gulls on shape, jizz etc.
bill base is a bit paler which also fits these central asian taxa.
most armenian have darkish iris, in steppe and caspian gull it varies a lot.
all three birds in pic 1 have about the same shade of dull yellow in leg colour. all 3 have the same shade of grey in mantle - if they were armenian + caspian the difference in mantle colour would be visible - they stand in the same lateral angle to the camera. all three are in the same primary moult state: p6 being fully grown and p10 retained, a rel large p10 mirror is visible with a rel. thin subterminal band (again, all wrong for armenian).
as for probability: i'm sure steppe gull passes through both iran and iraq since it winters widely in the gulf but also in western india. kookherd being not too far from the coast and in a riverine wetland area suitable for many wetland birds (great pics on your blog, ghaffar!). cachinnans could well be there, also.
in northwestern iran the situation might be different: the largest armenian colony is in iran (i hope it still is!), if lake urmia will survive: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/02cynov.html
cachinnans usually has less yellow legs in autumn, barabensis more constantly yellow. then, the birds seem to be a bit too dark mantled for cachinnans (but light is tricky). head striation ist just fine for cachinnans - fine and scattered. longish head with an angle in the nape in the male types is also typical for caspian. so - these should come from somewhere between caspian sea, kazakhstan or russia - but: if cachinnans or barabensis, this is a good question, even in their reproductive zones. there seems to be some interbreeding.
a nice site to compare all these taxa is this one: http://www.birdsofsaudiarabia.com/p/large-gull-id.html
check also these pics: http://chrisgibbins-gullsbirds.blogspot.de/2010/05/steppe-gulls-in-uae.html
all the best,
Last edited:
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello L & G
The L: bird is quite fits which Amr's birds her : http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/5cy/5cysept16.html , and for wing P5 molt and full ID, wing molt reading for Arm. is her: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/05cysept.html
There is no indication it is a female in URL you attached?
Omar
The L: bird is quite fits which Amr's birds her : http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/5cy/5cysept16.html , and for wing P5 molt and full ID, wing molt reading for Arm. is her: http://www.gull-research.org/armenicus/05cysept.html
There is no indication it is a female in URL you attached?
Omar
ghaffar
Well-known member
Hi lou salomon & Iraq Babbler
Thank you for your identifications. I'm sorry that I couldn't participate in your dialogues.
I should add that there were only 3 birds and all the photos belong to them. The bird which is flying in pic2 is the bird which is on the right side in pic1 (in the first post). Unfortunately it was sunset and the light was poor and I couldn't take better photos so I attach some different photos now.
There is a larger photo on:
http://kookherdbirds.persiangig.com/image/others/IMG_0435-Large-ID.jpg
Thank you for your identifications. I'm sorry that I couldn't participate in your dialogues.
I should add that there were only 3 birds and all the photos belong to them. The bird which is flying in pic2 is the bird which is on the right side in pic1 (in the first post). Unfortunately it was sunset and the light was poor and I couldn't take better photos so I attach some different photos now.
There is a larger photo on:
http://kookherdbirds.persiangig.com/image/others/IMG_0435-Large-ID.jpg
Attachments
Last edited:
lou salomon
the birdonist
they are probably all three steppe gulls (larus fuscus barabensis). the fact that all 3 have yellow legs, a dark subterminal mark to p10 and not the longest bills favour this species over cachinnans. armenian gull is out of the equation.
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
barabensis do not molt ps till midl-late Oct. and those are doing well already replaced P5-P7, beside other tips those at least do not fit Steppe.
Omar
Omar
lou salomon
the birdonist
there's no LWHG without any primary moult in september (just arrested moult possible) and moult state of these 3 birds exactly corresponds to that of barabensis: "by september it has reached p4-6, by november p7-9" (olsen, larsson). it would be very retarded for cachinnans.
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello
I meant the visible Ps , thought that was known already...
As same as Caspian?, however in right bird : P7 is molting ( according to O&L that out of SG) as I could see only three tips (p10 has large mirr.)of primary molt in pic#2 in first set (which is same right bird as Gahfar indicated), so it would be more likely there complete its primary molt in early-mid November.
Omar
I meant the visible Ps , thought that was known already...
As same as Caspian?, however in right bird : P7 is molting ( according to O&L that out of SG) as I could see only three tips (p10 has large mirr.)of primary molt in pic#2 in first set (which is same right bird as Gahfar indicated), so it would be more likely there complete its primary molt in early-mid November.
Omar
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