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Old Thursday 5th June 2014, 23:43   #76
mjensen6577
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I am more and more convinced that Zeiss Germany is reading birdforum to get inspiration about what the market needs.
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Old Thursday 5th June 2014, 23:47   #77
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The proper emoticon, Mr Jensen, I think would be !
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Old Thursday 5th June 2014, 23:54   #78
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Alexis, I'm certain it's just bog stock linear, despite all the "dynamic" references. .... we went through the same speculative machinations when the recent SLC came out. RonE explained it best if you care to dig that up, and agreed -- it doesn't sound lightning quick either.... prolly quite deliberate.... baby steps for former Swaro owners!
Oh sure, I remember well, because it was me who more than once had to shoot down rumors/misinterpretations of whether the focus of the SV and new SLC are variable-ratio (For the record, they are not). I've been pushing hard for variable-ratio coupled with ultra close focus limit for a long time, and I take every opportunity when a new bin comes out to bring up the matter.

I agree that 1.8 turns does not bode well for focus speed. The 1.5 m close focus is no excuse. After all, the 8x32 FL focuses to 1.5 m (at least for me) and it takes exactly one turn to do so.

--AP
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 00:02   #79
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I have been following the information available, and a copy of the US press release is attached.

I do have to give Zeiss a lot of credit, as I find it a bit surprising with this introduction, as the
HT had followed their conventional design.

These do offer many of the things that I like in a high quality binocular, a nice flat field with a view
to the edges, etc.

The FOV that is available with these is very wide, and I would like to see how they can accomplish all of this
compared to how the Swaro. SV and the Nikon EDG have done it.

If you note in the press release, this binocular is aimed straight at the Swarovision. Many similar features
with a better focuser, and "greatly reduced globe effect".

Jerry
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File Type: pdf Zeiss Victory SF press release. 6-2014.pdf (33.2 KB, 534 views)
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 00:42   #80
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..... I do have to give Zeiss a lot of credit, as I find it a bit surprising with this introduction, as the
HT had followed their conventional design.....

The FOV that is available with these is very wide, and I would like to see how they can accomplish all of this
compared to how the Swaro. SV and the Nikon EDG have done it....

If you note in the press release, this binocular is aimed straight at the Swarovision. Many similar features
with a better focuser, and "greatly reduced globe effect".

Jerry
Jerry,

I too am wondering how Zeiss has managed to keep the weight low while offering such a wide Fov, complex eyepiece, and reasonable ER. Both the Swarovski SV and the Nikon EDGII are finely engineered mechanical instruments, with many intricately designed weight saving features (such as prism waisting and sophisticated and complex magnesium body). Usually, the prisms /oculars are skimped on to keep the weight down - resulting in narrowed Fov and/or truncated exit pupils thus reducing viewed brightness.

I only hope that the claimed figures for Fov, ER, and weight stand true with actual measurement ..... which may be something of a first!

Also, the claim of "greatly reduced globe effect" while offering a view that consists of "a sharp image all the way to the edges" is an interesting /bold one which will need further scrutiny / verification. Holger's calculated k value of ~0.7 points toward an EDGII type view, yet one that is not so far removed from the SV, so it may not still suit all those whose eye distortions leave them prone to the effect. I think Brock for at least one, is still gunna struggle.....

The final proof will be in the pudding


Chosun

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 00:51   #81
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Any report on color balance.... neutral with white whites?

CG
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 01:15   #82
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Lightbulb

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Originally Posted by Troubador View Post
What you really want CJ, is a modular CFRP binocular so you can swap between different magnifications and different objective sizes, but then you would need different bodies too with different sized prisms and lord knows how you would deal with the focusing mechanism. But hey we're just dreaming here so we can express our wildest wish

Lee
Lee, no need for any of that fanciful stuff.... careful not to come off as a Zeiss apologist, fanboi, or shareholder even!

All we want is a fixed 9x50 HT, with 18mm ER and 70degree AFov. .... Ideally in a carbon fibre sandwich construction and dual density armoring to keep the weight down toward 800g !! If it helps with the hurry up they can just be moulded in CFRP -- heck! the FL's were half way there! just substitute carbon fibre strands for fiberglass and tah dah !!

I really want a 9x50 !!!!


Chosun
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 01:16   #83
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Chosun:

You have raised some good questions, and it is good you have expanded the discussion.

I suppose we will have to wait to see how these binoculars perform.

Jerry
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 02:04   #84
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Jerry,

I too am wondering how Zeiss has managed to keep the weight low while offering such a wide Fov, complex eyepiece, and reasonable ER. Both the Swarovski SV and the Nikon EDGII are finely engineered mechanical instruments, with many intricately designed weight saving features (such as prism waisting and sophisticated and complex magnesium body). Usually, the prisms /oculars are skimped on to keep the weight down - resulting in narrowed Fov and/or truncated exit pupils thus reducing viewed brightness.

I only hope that the claimed figures for Fov, ER, and weight stand true with actual measurement ..... which may be something of a first!

Also, the claim of "greatly reduced globe effect" while offering a view that consists of "a sharp image all the way to the edges" is an interesting /bold one which will need further scrutiny / verification. Holger's calculated k value of ~0.7 points toward an EDGII type view, yet one that is not so far removed from the SV, so it may not still suit all those whose eye distortions leave them prone to the effect. I think Brock for at least one, is still gunna struggle.....

The final proof will be in the pudding


Chosun

Now that Zeiss has apparently taken my suggestion of a k=0.7 value serious, I would guess that the globe effect remains absent to at least 90% of all observers. The SF thus has a little higher amount of distortion than the average Swaro SV, yet small enough to offer only gently curved lines toward the edges of field.

What we don't know yet is how the distortion varies radially from the center toward the edge. If there exist any anomalies, such as in some of the SV ("mustache distortion") , then the globe effect might reemerge into the scene from the "back door".

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:05   #85
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Originally Posted by Holger Merlitz View Post
Now that Zeiss has apparently taken my suggestion of a k=0.7 value serious, I would guess that the globe effect remains absent to at least 90% of all observers. The SF thus has a little higher amount of distortion than the average Swaro SV, yet small enough to offer only gently curved lines toward the edges of field.

What we don't know yet is how the distortion varies radially from the center toward the edge. If there exist any anomalies, such as in some of the SV ("mustache distortion") , then the globe effect might reemerge into the scene from the "back door".

Cheers,
Holger
Or the appearance of an "Oberkochen Ring" in the distortion transition zone.

If the AMD (or my scrambled acronym for it, MAD) and pincushion are better balanced than the SV EL, the SF will provide an alternative for the deep pocketed "rollingballers" who couldn't adjust to the globe effect in the SV EL. A small market segment in a niche premium sport optics market, but an alternative none-the-less that some will be happy to buy.

But at $2,700 in the states and over $3,000 abroad, it's hard to imagine that the SF will be a "high demand global product" except in Qatar, Luxemburg, Singapore and Norway, which are the Richest Countries by 2013 GDP Per Capita. If the margins are healthy enough, Zeiss won't have to sell a lot of them.

Brock
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:14   #86
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Anyway a double bridge is nothing really new, Zeiss made some already a century ago...
Maybe that's why Zeiss can get away with making a high-end open bridge w/out threat of litigation and Nikon couldn't. Or perhaps the addition of the third bridge makes it different enough to avoid patent infringement.

Someone above suggested the lawsuit threat was about the focuser not the open bridge design, but that wasn't the case, as someone showed when he posted the patent document, which showed that the open bridge design itself was patented.

Brock
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:20   #87
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Lee, no need for any of that fanciful stuff.... careful not to come off as a Zeiss apologist, fanboi, or shareholder even!

Chosun
You mean Zeiss-guys, fan-boys and shareholders are all 'head in the clouds' fanciful dreamers, not in touch with reality?

I think you have just come up with a definition of the average BF member

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:37   #88
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But at $2,700 in the states and over $3,000 abroad, it's hard to imagine that the SF will be a "high demand global product"

Brock
Brock

Of course this remains to be seen but Mike said it will sell in the States for just $100 more than Swaro's EL SV and one see's plenty of those suckers around, so I don't think the SF is aimed at a micro-niche market.

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:50   #89
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Brock,

If Nikon "really" was threatened with a law suit over their open bridge design on the 1st incarnation of the EDG Swarovski did them a favor.

Nikons was a poor design with oversized hinge covers on both hinges taking up finger space and no good places to attach the coverings to the objective tubes which caused them to "bubble" and begin working loose and nowhere to attach objective covers that would stay on the binocular. It was an ergonomic disaster. I know because I have one. I keep it because the optics are superb!

The 2nd incarnation of the EDG with it's single hinge is much better in all those areas and certainly much better looking! A handsome binocular indeed!

Bob

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:56   #90
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Brock

Of course this remains to be seen but Mike said it will sell in the States for just $100 more than Swaro's EL SV and one see's plenty of those suckers around, so I don't think the SF is aimed at a micro-niche market.

Lee
Those "suckers" (the SV ELs) didn't cost $2,600 when they were first released. They eventually settled in at $2,400, but the introductory price was less when people were jumping on the bandwagon, and some also traded in their old ELs for $800 at Eagle Optics, which is now selling the 8.5x model for $2,529.

Swaro increased the price ~$200 over the past two years. Expect another $100 increase this year or next to keep competitive with Zeiss.

Maybe EO will give you $800 as a trade-in on your old HTs.

Brock
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 05:59   #91
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Looks to be a good bino but comes at a steep increase in cost....2435 Euros or $3300. It sure seems that optics (lens, bino's and scopes) are getting very pricey. You pay for what you get but wow, just think if you opted for the newest out there in terms of scopes and bino's what your wallet would look like.

Can one afford both the scope and the bino's now? Is that the message now hitting us?
Like blunt force trauma to the head.

Glad to see that at least one other person on the forum also has "sticker shock." With people accepting the price of the SF so easily, you'd think that money grew on trees.

Also funny how some people were criticizing Zeiss for joining the "race to the bottom" when the Terra ED was announced, and now Zeiss is leading the "race to to top."

Brock
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 07:46   #92
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Someone above suggested the lawsuit threat was about the focuser not the open bridge design, but that wasn't the case, as someone showed when he posted the patent document, which showed that the open bridge design itself was patented.
Well, I think it has been pointed out many times that the patent was about the focusser not the bridge design, you just managed to ignore that all along. There was even a thread dedicated to this issue.

If you read the patent text properly (a bit difficult to read, but you don't need to be a patent lawyer to get the obvious) you will find it mentionned clearly that the patented invention refers to the focusser.

Quote from the patent :
Quote:
1.Field of the Invention
This invention relates to binoculars having a focusing mechanism mounted on the outside of a rearmost bridge connecting the body tubes and particularly to a focusing mechanism including a gear extending to each tube through the bridge and inwhich focusing is not affected by adjustments made to the distance between the tubes.
The oben bridge design is merely mentioned when describing different types of binoculars in which the focus mechanism can be used.

Zeiss is probably very accurate when talking about the "traditional double bridge", a traditional design that has been around since a long time, just as the single bridge, never patented by anyone.

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 07:51   #93
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Glad to see that at least one other person on the forum also has "sticker shock." With people accepting the price of the SF so easily, you'd think that money grew on trees.
People seem to have no problem accepting Swarovski prices. If the SF really turns out to be clearly better than the Swarovision, why should Zeiss sell it for less than Swarovski?
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 08:55   #94
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Well, I think it has been pointed out many times that the patent was about the focusser not the bridge design, you just managed to ignore that all along. There was even a thread dedicated to this issue.

If you read the patent text properly (a bit difficult to read, but you don't need to be a patent lawyer to get the obvious) you will find it mentionned clearly that the patented invention refers to the focusser.

Quote from the patent :


The oben bridge design is merely mentioned when describing different types of binoculars in which the focus mechanism can be used.

Zeiss is probably very accurate when talking about the "traditional double bridge", a traditional design that has been around since a long time, just as the single bridge, never patented by anyone.
It is obvious Brock is suffering from a Nikon EDG trauma. Don't waist your breath on this subject

Finally the SV has serious competition.
to Zeiss Wetzlar on this subject!

Jan
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 08:56   #95
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Like blunt force trauma to the head.

Glad to see that at least one other person on the forum also has "sticker shock." With people accepting the price of the SF so easily, you'd think that money grew on trees.


Brock
It does, kind of. Not only the US Note Bank, but also the European Central Bank are printing money in huge amounts, to "keep inflation going" - here we are. Unfortunately all this new money seems ending up in somebody else's pockets. At least, none of theses armored cars has been observed parking at the next street corner, distributing freshly printed money to the people passing by ...

Cheers,
Holger
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 09:04   #96
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Those "suckers" (the SV ELs) didn't cost $2,600 when they were first released. They eventually settled in at $2,400, but the introductory price was less when people were jumping on the bandwagon, and some also traded in their old ELs for $800 at Eagle Optics, which is now selling the 8.5x model for $2,529.

Swaro increased the price ~$200 over the past two years. Expect another $100 increase this year or next to keep competitive with Zeiss.

Maybe EO will give you $800 as a trade-in on your old HTs.

Brock
Its certainly big money Brock, but folks spend bigger money on cars and other stuff. Dedicated birders perhaps spend less on their cars and more on their birding kit.

Next time I am visiting my fave bins dealer I might ask him for a trade-in quote but it won't be anytime soon

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 09:10   #97
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The SF Carrying Case

OK fellow Zeiss-obsessives.

The press release has some enigmatic things to say about the SF's carrying case:
The binoculars include a newly developed protective case for transport. The multifunctional case makes it possible to use the binoculars while zipped shut, without the neck strap. The additional magnetic closure also keeps the binoculars at ready, making them easy to use at out at a moment’s notice. The elegantly streamlined, yet highly functional design of the case allows for comfortable wearing in the field with shoulder straps or belt loops.
Go to http://www.foto-wannack.de/fernglase...10x42-und.html

And you will see that the new case is a staggering departure from Zeiss recent perfectly adequate but rather sober efforts

This explains the price, Brock

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 10:32   #98
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People seem to have no problem accepting Swarovski prices. If the SF really turns out to be clearly better than the Swarovision, why should Zeiss sell it for less than Swarovski?
Basic rule in marketing of a premium product,
top notch in every aspect, including price,
anything else would be stupid,

in sweden,
SF price seems to be about 30% above HT,
and 12% above Swarovski SV models,

Some posh birders will have a pretty tough autumn (both HT and SV owners)
realizing that they don't carry the most expensive binos any more.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 10:43   #99
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OK fellow Zeiss-obsessives.

The press release has some enigmatic things to say about the SF's carrying case:
The binoculars include a newly developed protective case for transport. The multifunctional case makes it possible to use the binoculars while zipped shut, without the neck strap. The additional magnetic closure also keeps the binoculars at ready, making them easy to use at out at a moment’s notice. The elegantly streamlined, yet highly functional design of the case allows for comfortable wearing in the field with shoulder straps or belt loops.
Go to http://www.foto-wannack.de/fernglase...10x42-und.html

And you will see that the new case is a staggering departure from Zeiss recent perfectly adequate but rather sober efforts

This explains the price, Brock

Lee
Oh man, they even took Swaro's case design. Now that was a mistake!!!

The "lawsuit" was never more than apocryphal. Repeated endlessly it seems to have taken on a credence it does not deserve.

Mark
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 11:17   #100
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Oh man, they even took Swaro's case design. Now that was a mistake!!!

The "lawsuit" was never more than apocryphal. Repeated endlessly it seems to have taken on a credence it does not deserve.

Mark
I think you need new glasses,
that zeiss logo is pretty obvious
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