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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 11:50   #101
Kammerdiner
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Just referring to the design, which isn't much liked by some users.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 12:34   #102
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Originally Posted by Kammerdiner View Post
Just referring to the design, which isn't much liked by some users.
Of course its not liked by some users Mark. Thats in the nature of users and everything on the market.

I like the old style Zeiss bag because it has 'ears or extensions' on each side of the lid so it covers the opening underneath where the bins are and doesn't just leave a gap down each side so rain can get in.

Other folks hate these extensions because they get in the way of leaving the bins' lanyard hanging outside of the case so they can be grabbed quickly and dragged out. It never occurs to me to do this.

I only use the case while travelling long distances, say in the car while going to a holiday destination. Dashing through rain to hotels on the way I don't like getting the bins wet. That's my little weakness, they get plenty wet if it rains and I am out birding.

I like the fact that at last the Victory line, Zeiss's top line, is getting the quality of accessories it deserves.

Will it please all of the folks all the time? Not likely. That's folks for you

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 13:53   #103
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I just think it would be pretty hard do prove the uniqueness for a bulky, unpractical bag with a zipper…
after all, zeiss version also have a magnetic lock

:-)
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 14:34   #104
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On the Zeiss website you can download the instructions for users for the new SF:

http://applications.zeiss.com/C1257996004D33D2/0/3DFCE1CB9BA96EE3C1257CE100236F5F/$FILE/ZEISS_INU_BIN_VICTORY-SF.pdf

The objective covers seem to be fixed INSIDE the barrel (like Swaro), but in contrast to Swaro they are one piece, attached to the carrying strap.


Considering the big size of the focusing system I wonder if this principle is really applicable to a decent 8x32?
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 14:43   #105
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Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
It is obvious Brock is suffering from a Nikon EDG trauma. Don't waist your breath on this subject

Finally the SV has serious competition.
to Zeiss Wetzlar on this subject!

Jan
Finally?

Sez who? The SV already had serious competition. Note the Nikon 10x42 EDG ranking here:

http://www.allbinos.com/allbinos_ran...ing-10x42.html

And by the way, where does the 8x42 SV rank? Oops, sorry, they don't have an 8x42 SV do they? Well, that's they way it goes.

Bob
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 14:48   #106
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Zeiss could lure me with a top end 8x32 (or better yet, 7x32)... the 8x32FL just doesn't cut it for me.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 15:15   #107
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This from the US Zeiss facebook page:

"Carl Zeiss Birding_US SF stands for Smart Focus. The SF was designed by Gerold Dobler who also designed the EL. It is not a copy but an evolution of the design concept, better in every dimension. Wider field (the field of a 7x in an 8x), sharp to the edge without uncomfortable distoritons for a more comfortable view; lighter weight; stronger, more comfortable Triple hinge system; superior balance; and, as you would expect from ZEISS, brighter by a visible margin. In photographs it might look something like an EL (in person it actually has its own unique look), but the view it provides, and the way it feels in your hands, is so noticeably different that no one is going to mistake the SF for an EL, once they get them in front of their eyes. The SF is what the EL wants to be when it grows up. :-) It is, very simply, the world's best birding and nature observation binocular. I am Steve Ingraham, and you have my word on that!"

Apparently some Americans are enjoying a "Zeiss Victory SF Experience" in Austria right now, including Ben from Eagle Optics and Debi Love Shearwater (well known pelagic guide). Some people have all the luck!

https://www.facebook.com/zeissbirdingus

Mark

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 15:39   #108
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I remember reading that on Facebook, a couple of nights ago.
Looks like the SF has the large HT focusing wheel which is a good thing.
I like the SF but would still rather have a 15x54 HT.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 15:49   #109
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Well, I think it has been pointed out many times that the patent was about the focusser not the bridge design, you just managed to ignore that all along. There was even a thread dedicated to this issue.

If you read the patent text properly (a bit difficult to read, but you don't need to be a patent lawyer to get the obvious) you will find it mentionned clearly that the patented invention refers to the focusser.

Quote from the patent :


The oben bridge design is merely mentioned when describing different types of binoculars in which the focus mechanism can be used.

Zeiss is probably very accurate when talking about the "traditional double bridge", a traditional design that has been around since a long time, just as the single bridge, never patented by anyone.
No one but Mike Freiberg has explained the reason for the lawsuit against Nikon, the rest is speculation. I've used the focusers on the EDG and the EL, and they are not the same. The EL's pulls out and turns the diopter, the EDG's pulls out to gain access to the diopter ring.

The EDG I focusers didn't work properly when they were first released and when owners sent them in for repairs, they received EDG II replacements, and the focusers on the EDG II are the same as the EDG I except the focuser knob engages without slipping, and for the most part, the diopters don't drift (there have been some reports of the latter problem with the EDG II). So they fixed the glitches.

Mike Freiberg stated that litigation was due to the body design, and I kept posting links to his post when you and others kept claiming the litigation threat was due to the focuser design, but "you just managed to ignore that all along."

Until you post cutaway photos showing that the EDG II focuser is different than the EDG I (ask any EDG owner who has had both and they will tell you that externally they are the same design), and show that the EDG I cutaway looks exactly like the EL WB (this was before the SV EL was released, remember), I will take Mike at his word and ignore your speculations.

<B>

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 16:38   #110
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Personally I`d rather they copied the diopter on the Nikon HG which is the most exquisite I`v ever encountered. Crisp click when pulled up and pushed back, no chance of drifting. Simple is often best.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 16:40   #111
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Originally Posted by brocknroller View Post
Mike Freiberg stated that litigation was due to the body design, and I kept posting links to his post when you and others kept claiming the litigation threat was due to the focuser design, but "you just managed to ignore that all along."
<B>
what post?

I think nikon realized, all by themselves, that the EDG I design was not good enough,
a bit late, but focus knobs popping off here and there is not a good thing
for your reputation,

that said, looking forward to the new nikon monarch scopes,
hopefully they will be as good as competition but to a
reasonable prize, and fully QA tested before product release,
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 17:08   #112
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Originally Posted by brocknroller View Post
No one but Mike Freiberg has explained the reason for the lawsuit against Nikon, the rest is speculation.

Mike Freiberg stated that litigation was due to the body design, and I kept posting links to his post when you and others kept claiming the litigation threat was due to the focuser design, but "you just managed to ignore that all along."

<B>
Brock

Most of the legal jargon in the patent does indeed concentrate on the focus mechanism and that does seem to me (a non-legal guy) be the main point.

But it isn't the only point. Over and over there is a reference to the twin bridge design being an integral part of the 'invention' and here is an excerpt:
This invention relates to binoculars and, more particularly, to binoculars having two body tubes connected via at least one jointed bridge for adjusting the distance between the eyes, both tubes having axially displaceable focusing means operated by a common focusing knob mounted on the jointed bridge engaging respective gears extending through the jointed bridge. DE-PS 154 142 discloses binoculars having two spaced articulably jointed bridges connected to a pair of body tubes housing the optical components of the binoculars. Since the bridges are not connected by a center axle, an open space is formed between the two body tubes and the connecting bridges so that one tube can be enclosed by the user's hand. This reach-through ensures safe handling of the binoculars and in particular considerably facilitates holding and carrying the binoculars with onehand.
I think it is clear to even non-legal folks that the body design and the design of the focusing mechanism were seen as complementary parts of the same invention.

In short, you were right and when I have sought to correct you on this, I was wrong.

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 17:27   #113
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http://www.zeiss.com/sports-optics/e...expertise.html

thank God, zeiss hired a bunch of bird watchers, at last..
all those zeiss hunting commercials started to get on my nerves..
:-)
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 17:27   #114
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Lee,

I've deleted my original post on the subject of Dr. Dobler after reading his bio in the link above. He does not appear to be an optical designer. I would appreciate it if you would delete your response #113 that quotes my original post.

Henry

Last edited by henry link : Friday 6th June 2014 at 17:54.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 17:39   #115
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http://www.minox.com/index.php?id=8643&L=1
http://www.opticronusa.com/Pages/verano_bga_hd.html
http://www.gofoto.se/kamakura-10x42-...115-c-168.aspx
http://store.birdwatching.net/store/...d=rainier%20(#
http://www.barrandstroud.com/prodfam.php?id=195

and the list goes on
of open bridge designs

swarovski must be very angry now…

:)
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 17:52   #116
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Lee,

Given that time frame I'm now wondering whether Mr. Dobler was the designer of the original EL or the EL SV. Was he the sole designer or part of a design team? You seem to be on a first name basis with these Zeiss guys - any insights?

Henry
probably involved in the EL development,

but Dobler is not a designer, he is a product manager

http://www.zeiss.com/sports-optics/e...expertise.html

KISKA (Austria) have done the design of the latest Zeiss binos (HT and TerraED)

http://www.kiska.com/en/our-clients/

not unlikely they designed the SF as well,
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 18:19   #117
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Vespobuteo,

Thanks, When I opened your link I realized the Zeiss facebook quote had misinformed us by stating plainly that Dr. Dobler was the designer of the EL and SF, so I deleted my first post and my questions to Lee. My mistake for uncritically accepting marketing material.

I imagine KISKA is only responsible for the look of the Zeiss binoculars, much like Wolkswagen designs the look of Minox binoculars.

Henry

Last edited by henry link : Friday 6th June 2014 at 18:37.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 18:36   #118
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Vespobuteo,

Thanks, When I opened your link I realized the Zeiss facebook quote had misinformed us by stated plainly that Dr. Dobler was the designer of the EL and SF, so I deleted my first post and my questions to Lee. My mistake for uncritically accepting marketing material.

I imagine KISKA is only responsible for the look of the Zeiss binoculars, much like Wolkswagen designs the look of Minox binoculars.

Henry
and also ergonomics, It would be interesting to know how many people were involved in the development of the SF, must have been a joy to be able to develop a premium binocular with no constraints…just make it the best out there guys..no matter the cost...


http://www.kiska.com/en/we-do/design...roduct-design/
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 19:15   #119
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Lee,

I've deleted my original post on the subject of Dr. Dobler after reading his bio in the link above. He does not appear to be an optical designer. I would appreciate it if you would delete your response #113 that quotes my original post.

Henry
Done Henry. PM on its way

Lee
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 19:23   #120
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
probably involved in the EL development,

but Dobler is not a designer, he is a product manager

http://www.zeiss.com/sports-optics/e...expertise.html

KISKA (Austria) have done the design of the latest Zeiss binos (HT and TerraED)

http://www.kiska.com/en/our-clients/

not unlikely they designed the SF as well,
Hi

My understanding is that Gerold Dobler leads and directs a design team. I wouldn't know how to separate the direction given to achieve certain optical and handling abilities and characteristics from the act of doing the optical calculations and detailed design work itself. It would appear to be two sides of the same coin.

If I am mistaken in this perhaps Mike Jensen or Mark Karn could enlighten us.

BTW I should add that Gerry attends the British Bird Fair from time to time and can be found on the Zeiss stand. He is the most approachable of people and an enthusiastic birder.

Lee

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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 20:24   #121
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I wanted to blog about this release, but I am not able to find a proper product image of any of the models. Any idea where to find some good resolution images (min of 800 pixels on the longer side)?
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 20:38   #122
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I think in this case the "designer" has the glam job and asks for things. The engineers are the poor sots who have to make it work.

Speaking of which, I just got around to calculating the FOV in feet. Did I do this right? 444 feet at a thousand for the 8x?

Indeed, the 8x SF seems to be aimed straight at the SV:

"Wider," by 45', although the SV is 8.5x.

"Faster": faster focus than the SV, but slower then the FL.

"Brighter": remains to be seen if this can be seen (by me anyway).

"Lighter": by 2 ounces. No revolution there I'm afraid. Still, given a choice...

It may be "incremental" but that's life at the cutting edge. Unless, Chosun prevails.

Mak
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 21:35   #123
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I'm not inclined to give any design credit to the executive who says, "make me a binocular with a wide field that's sharp to the edge". Couldn't we all handle that job? The designer is the one who comes up with the eyepiece that makes it happen.
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Old Friday 6th June 2014, 22:03   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
http://www.zeiss.com/sports-optics/e...expertise.html

thank God, zeiss hired a bunch of bird watchers, at last..
all those zeiss hunting commercials started to get on my nerves..
:-)
If they ever need one more to test their stuff, let me know.
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Old Saturday 7th June 2014, 01:25   #125
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I'm not inclined to give any design credit to the executive who says, "make me a binocular with a wide field that's sharp to the edge". Couldn't we all handle that job? The designer is the one who comes up with the eyepiece that makes it happen.
Henry:

Your words seem to be ringing true at Zeiss.

Swarovski has been recently by far the largest seller of the high end Alpha optics. The company only sells optics and has its crystal division.

At Carl Zeiss, sports optics is quite a small part of its total sales, as Microscopy, medical, semiconductor, industrial, vision, and camera lenses seem to be a larger part of sales within a large diversified company.

If anyone is interested, the reports of the company are public knowledge
as per their financial reports.

I do like competition, and do appreciate some new efforts from Carl Zeiss.

Mike Jenson, is a former employee of Swarovski, and so he has helped to
get things up to speed.

Jerry
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