Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 2 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Tuesday 23rd September 2014, 11:17   #1
Steve
Registered user

 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Uk
Posts: 43
Warning for a few.

Gents, no real easy way to say this so I'm going to say it as it is. I am sick to the back teeth of waking up to find a whole load of mail or PMs about the total disregard by a FEW members for the postings and views of other members in the optics section of BF.

One or two on here get involved in every thread posted and it seems if you don't agree with them then you are brow beaten or told how wrong you are, well it doesn't work like that I'm afraid and its going to stop, because I am simply just going to kick some sorry arses into the long grass. the optics section is a community with the whole BF community and long may it continue to be up there with other forums in discussing everything to do with optics, but it is not a sounding board for political bollox, or making absurd sweeping statements about how bad every other optic is EXCEPT the one YOU own is, and taking threads way of course until other members who have something to say on the subject simply don't bother.

Why the **** would you or anyone post anything in a thread they don't have anything sensible to say about, I find it incredible sometimes that a member will start posting negative rubbish simply because they feel as though they need to get involved??? I read some post's on here and think what utter claptrap but I move on because I would not bring anything sensible, readable, or interesting to the discussion, why is it that certain members of the optic section feel they have add their two cents worth of non related crap to upset everyone who has a genuine interest in the post? Beats me

Healthy debate and discussion is of course very welcome and to a degree we have to wade through some treacle occasionally to get to the sensible bits, BUT shouting loudest being rude, obnoxious and lets face it boringly repetitive is not going to get you any points, kudos,or a cigar on this site, its going to get you canned in the long run.

If you want to discuss politics, football, star trek, Dr Who, Miss world, the war in Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, etc or what bins the taliban favour,then go to Ruffled feathers.

No one wants to lose members but if it is for the greater good for the majority, then unfortunately your going to wonder where certain individuals have gone.

Rant over

yours with love

Steve
__________________
http://www.birdforum.net
Steve is offline  
Old Tuesday 23rd September 2014, 14:05   #2
OsageArcher
Forum Member

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jonesboro
Posts: 172
Isn't it always an option to just pass over and ignore the posts that you don't agree with? Just like on a TV, no one forces me to watch and listen to a channel I don't want to.

It sounds as if YOU are saying, "You must agree with ME and my ideas of decorum etc. or I will banish you!" To me that doesn't seem to be much different than what you are complaining about...
OsageArcher is offline  
Old Tuesday 23rd September 2014, 15:54   #3
Steve
Registered user

 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Uk
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by OsageArcher View Post
Isn't it always an option to just pass over and ignore the posts that you don't agree with? Just like on a TV, no one forces me to watch and listen to a channel I don't want to.

It sounds as if YOU are saying, "You must agree with ME and my ideas of decorum etc. or I will banish you!" To me that doesn't seem to be much different than what you are complaining about...
Osagearcher, thats exactly what I'm saying, agree with the way I want certain members to behave or march off elsewhere to play. re read my post ,(especially about passing post's instead of posting rubbish ) then understand what I'm saying, then take it on board, then make a decision as to whether you are going to make an argument out of it because you want to post here and piss me off ,then I will make a decision on whether you remain a member or not.

Simple isn't it?
__________________
http://www.birdforum.net
Steve is offline  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 00:08   #4
NDhunter
Registered User
 
NDhunter's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: ND
Posts: 3,497
Steve:

This is troubling, and why the ignore feature is offered.

I have used it. OpticsNuts is on mine, and if he is the one complaining, then
consider the source.

Jerry
NDhunter is online now  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 00:56   #5
OPTIC_NUT
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wilmington Mass
Posts: 1,894
Sir:
I never complain privately or in secret. Never.
I am open in all in my logic and the argumentative fallacies and politics I complain about.
I do not whine privately, and I am content to go down if it is the cost of truth.
The troubles have been experienced by very good people elsewhere. If they find a home here,
I am content to be where discovery lives....somewhere else.
If you have me on ignore, could someone please pass this on?
OPTIC_NUT is offline  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 01:45   #6
OPTIC_NUT
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wilmington Mass
Posts: 1,894
I did send a message in private.
It was a request to be banned.
It's best for all concerned...in the short run.
OPTIC_NUT is offline  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 08:43   #7
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,196
Steve

Your intervention is well timed. We could all benefit from remembering our manners.

It appears that some folks are proud of their 'I tell it like I see it', 'I don't dress stuff up', 'You need to take me as you find me', 'You don't like what I say then tough, get over it', sort of attitude.

In face to face situations I favour candour over dissembling and although the attitude described above can sometimes feel abrupt, even rude, it can just as often be refreshing.

BUT.

It seems to me that too many folks don't appreciate that when typing out a post, that other folks reading it cannot hear the OP's tone of voice, cannot see body language or gestures, cannot see facial expressions and so can easily misinterpret words, phrases and sentences and be hurt, offended, insulted, enraged etc etc.

I know from personal experience that one or two folks didn't consider this aspect and when it was drawn to their attention they radically changed the way they posted and are valued members of the BF community.

So, Steve, before kicking members off this esteemed site, please consider a bit of 'social coaching' first.

Best wishes Lee
Troubador is offline  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 13:22   #8
Steve
Registered user

 
Join Date: Jan 1970
Location: Uk
Posts: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by OPTIC_NUT View Post
I did send a message in private.
It was a request to be banned.
It's best for all concerned...in the short run.
Send it to me I'll make your request priority.
__________________
http://www.birdforum.net
Steve is offline  
Old Wednesday 24th September 2014, 15:53   #9
OPTIC_NUT
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Wilmington Mass
Posts: 1,894
I'm thinking....there is only trouble with binoculars.
I can just not go to binoculars. The other places have no real issues
with turf, co-opting, argumentative fallacies, cross-posting, and ad-hom attacks.
I react excessively to such things. I can just not go to that place.

Last edited by OPTIC_NUT : Wednesday 24th September 2014 at 15:55.
OPTIC_NUT is offline  
Old Thursday 25th September 2014, 01:08   #10
Coin Hound
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Creston
Posts: 70
Thank you

I quit posting a few months ago. I really did like gathering some very useful information. When I liked a certain brand or model I was belittled and was responded to as if I was a fool.

Those know who they are--and yes, I still use the Redfield's to this day.

I still check in every so often but life is too short to argue over a few toys.
Coin Hound is offline  
Old Thursday 25th September 2014, 02:35   #11
David in NC
Registered User
 
David in NC's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jonas Ridge, NC USA
Posts: 712
Steve...

I hear what you are saying and ONLY what you are saying (without reading into it like I think some might). As a former moderator on another Internet forum years ago I know of the extra work for no compensation and the need to police every so often.

Thank you.



David

Edited to add: Googling "treacle" now however...

Last edited by David in NC : Thursday 25th September 2014 at 02:40.
David in NC is offline  
Old Friday 26th September 2014, 12:34   #12
Steve260
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Central PA
Posts: 27
Steve,

Thank you for the work you do to moderate this forum, and for laying out some basic rules to ensure that the forum can remain a respectful and civil place to discuss optics.

I am a relatively new member here. When I first posted to this forum several months ago with a request for some advice, I felt very welcome and received many very helpful and informative replies. I have noticed a recent increase in posts that just seem to be either argumentative for argument's sake, or redirect the thread toward a particular favored or unfavored optic, irrespective of the thread topic. Puzzling....

You will notice that my post count is not high. As a general rule, I will only post if I have something to add to a thread based on my own direct personal experience (not based on hearsay), or if I need to solicit input on a topic. I have been very fortunate to own binoculars from all of the alpha companies, and in my experience, there hasn't been any such thing as a "bad" binocular among them. I am happy to share my experiences to those who may ask, but for me to comment or have a strong opinion about any optic I haven't directly experienced in person seems a bit ridiculous.

Anyway, I think you are doing the right thing by reining things in to keep the forum civil and informative.

Best regards,
Steve
Steve260 is offline  

BF Supporter 2014 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 26th September 2014, 18:16   #13
Sancho
Registered User
 
Sancho's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 8,475
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve260 View Post

Anyway, I think you are doing the right thing by reining things in to keep the forum civil and informative.

Best regards,
Steve
Agreed. I think it's sad to see people who are probably all nice, decent folk, argue on an Internet forum about an interest they share. BF was the first forum I ever joined, and learning to navigate the protocols of online communication, which differs so much from everyday discourse, was a learning curve. I fell foul of the mods a few times, and occasionally (and unintentionally) rubbed other members up the wrong way. Now I have to remember that online banter can be misinterpreted, and there are also cultural differences - what constitutes a jolly jibe in Cork might read as offensive in New Delhi. As regards binoculars, they're only tubes with glass in. (We could be having real spats about Ivory-billed Woodpeckers and Giant Ravens, like in the old days!). In any case, a polite and gentle apology is, I find, always the best solution when someone has taken offence. It costs nothing except unnecessary ego, and can lead to a friendly online exchange, which is far healthier.
Sancho is offline  

BF Supporter 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 26th September 2014, 19:35   #14
Swissboy
Registered User
 
Swissboy's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Sempach, Switzerland
Posts: 3,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coin Hound View Post
............... life is too short to argue over a few toys.
VERY well said!
__________________
Robert
--PS: That's a Sooty Falcon on the avatar, photo taken near Sharm el Sheik, Egypt. My highest priority raptor at the time.
What's your species on the avatar? I often have no clue
!
Swissboy is offline  

BF Supporter 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 27th September 2014, 07:32   #15
CSG
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Idaho
Posts: 532
I've backed away from posting here recently. I was repeatedly insulted by a couple long time members who didn't like my thoughts on a couple issues and flatly stated I was didn't know what I was talking about. Well, sorry boys, but we all see differently and get along with different optics differently. One of them is posting in this thread but I put him and a few other on ignore. Made life much easier on the binocular forum but it's still not the enjoyable place it was when I first posted there around 2006.
__________________
Minolta 6x20, Vortex Fury 6.5x32, Jason 7x50, Nikon SE 8x32, Zeiss Conquest HD 8x32, Zeiss Terra ED 8x42, Zeiss Victory HT 8x42, Zeiss Victory 10x25, Canon 10x30 IS, Garrett 25x100 IF, Kowa TSN-883 w/25-60x WA, Televue Pronto, Televue TV-85
CSG is offline  
Old Saturday 27th September 2014, 17:36   #16
Leif
Registered Member

 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,959
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSG View Post
I've backed away from posting here recently. I was repeatedly insulted by a couple long time members who didn't like my thoughts on a couple issues and flatly stated I was didn't know what I was talking about. Well, sorry boys, but we all see differently and get along with different optics differently. One of them is posting in this thread but I put him and a few other on ignore. Made life much easier on the binocular forum but it's still not the enjoyable place it was when I first posted there around 2006.
I sympathise. Long ago I gave up on Bird Forum as I got sick of being put down, and basically called ignorant, by a small group of obnoxious people who came over from the Cloudy Nights forum. They pat each other on the back, tell each other that their posts are important, and put others down. After a while I grew tired of their autistic posting style. For a while the binoculars forum was full of long winded rambling nonsensical posts from one of these people.
Leif is offline  

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 30th September 2014, 16:15   #17
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
 
james holdsworth's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ontario
Posts: 2,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leif View Post
I sympathise. Long ago I gave up on Bird Forum as I got sick of being put down, and basically called ignorant, by a small group of obnoxious people who came over from the Cloudy Nights forum. They pat each other on the back, tell each other that their posts are important, and put others down. After a while I grew tired of their autistic posting style. For a while the binoculars forum was full of long winded rambling nonsensical posts from one of these people.

I wish you would post more, Leif, as I find what you have to say very informative and reasoned.

As for the rest of it, it's the internet and what would the internet be without vitriol? There isn't a forum I have been involved in - Porsche, F1, binoculars etc. etc. that doesn't descend into chaos from time-to-time, usually due to just a few folks that have personal agenda's or conflicts of interest - like selling of the products in question.

That, I think, is a big problem here.
james holdsworth is offline  
Old Tuesday 30th September 2014, 16:40   #18
David in NC
Registered User
 
David in NC's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jonas Ridge, NC USA
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
I wish you would post more, Leif, as I find what you have to say very informative and reasoned.

As for the rest of it, it's the internet and what would the internet be without vitriol? There isn't a forum I have been involved in - Porsche, F1, binoculars etc. etc. that doesn't descend into chaos from time-to-time, usually due to just a few folks that have personal agenda's or conflicts of interest - like selling of the products in question.

That, I think, is a big problem here.
Don't forget four pages of coffee...
David in NC is offline  
Old Friday 3rd October 2014, 08:35   #19
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
I wish you would post more, Leif, as I find what you have to say very informative and reasoned.

As for the rest of it, it's the internet and what would the internet be without vitriol? There isn't a forum I have been involved in - Porsche, F1, binoculars etc. etc. that doesn't descend into chaos from time-to-time, usually due to just a few folks that have personal agenda's or conflicts of interest - like selling of the products in question.

That, I think, is a big problem here.
Ehhh, do you mean Mike here, James????

Jan
jan van daalen is offline  
Old Sunday 5th October 2014, 23:33   #20
Tord S Eriksson
Tord
 
Tord S Eriksson's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by james holdsworth View Post
I wish you would post more, Leif, as I find what you have to say very informative and reasoned.

As for the rest of it, it's the internet and what would the internet be without vitriol? There isn't a forum I have been involved in - Porsche, F1, binoculars etc. etc. that doesn't descend into chaos from time-to-time, usually due to just a few folks that have personal agenda's or conflicts of interest - like selling of the products in question.

That, I think, is a big problem here.
Many of these miscreants can be reined in by banning them for a while. Done so in another forum where I am the moderator, and it works quite well. Some pop up back, under some other name, but most just don't bother!

I know a few places where stuff like that is unheard of, or very, very rare, but I better not tell where those are!

DPReview's forums for Canon is infamous in this respect, while the Nikon groups are better, and Pentax's even better still!

Many write really dumb things when drunk, so let's hope that alcohol tester becomes part of computers in the future! Blow to access the internet!!!
__________________
Tord S Eriksson, an enthusiast for everything flying outdoors, and photography!

Mostly Nikon 1, D7500 & D600, user.
Tord S Eriksson is offline  
Old Monday 6th October 2014, 17:51   #21
bh46118
Registered User
 
bh46118's Avatar

 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,435
That darned Canon riff raff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tord S Eriksson View Post

DPReview's forums for Canon is infamous in this respect, while the Nikon groups are better, and Pentax's even better still!
bh46118 is offline  
Old Friday 31st October 2014, 16:22   #22
ibramr
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve View Post
Gents, no real easy way to say this so I'm going to say it as it is. .......

No one wants to lose members but if it is for the greater good for the majority, then unfortunately your going to wonder where certain individuals have gone.

Rant over

yours with love

Steve
Steve,

Greetings. I support your intentions and work, and I am also thankful for your effort. Please allow me to share my concern that there is no recourse known to me that can be taken by the individuals who were subject to your decisions. To your credit, there is no one single case that I can quote here as an example of a possible capricious use of your power. Yet, fairness requires some sort of protection.

It is not practical to ask the Forum to devise a complex and a time-consuming recourse mechanism. Therefore, I would like to suggest instilling some more "transparency" in the process. This "transparency" is to take the form of a log in the Forum in which your decisions are listed for all the Forum to see. For example, the log--in half liners--will list member x was warned for such & such in that date, then warned again on such date, and then banned on such date. Also, "Post Y" was removed, or deleted, because of "such & such", and so on. Hopefully, this increased transparency will be of help for all Forum members to feel that the process is more just and reasonable.

This is a great Forum, and thank you again for your effort. Best regards.
ibramr is offline  
Old Friday 31st October 2014, 16:50   #23
David in NC
Registered User
 
David in NC's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jonas Ridge, NC USA
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibramr View Post
Steve,

Greetings. I support your intentions and work, and I am also thankful for your effort. Please allow me to share my concern that there is no recourse known to me that can be taken by the individuals who were subject to your decisions. To your credit, there is no one single case that I can quote here as an example of a possible capricious use of your power. Yet, fairness requires some sort of protection.

It is not practical to ask the Forum to devise a complex and a time-consuming recourse mechanism. Therefore, I would like to suggest instilling some more "transparency" in the process. This "transparency" is to take the form of a log in the Forum in which your decisions are listed for all the Forum to see. For example, the log--in half liners--will list member x was warned for such & such in that date, then warned again on such date, and then banned on such date. Also, "Post Y" was removed, or deleted, because of "such & such", and so on. Hopefully, this increased transparency will be of help for all Forum members to feel that the process is more just and reasonable.

This is a great Forum, and thank you again for your effort. Best regards.
Oh my GOD.



No "transparency" isn't best for everyone. It's one of those utopian "buzzwords" that folks love to use today knowing that ON THE SURFACE it sounds so great no one could say it's not good for the collective.

Like "for the children".

Having been a moderator before on another FREE Internet forum board it is NOT best to be "transparent." Some things NEED to be done behind the scenes and I have no problem with this. Warnings DO NOT NEED TO BE PUBLIC and there needs to be no roster of wrongs for everyone to see, because it doesn't matter what everyone thinks about each decision.

The Terms of Service when signing up for this FREE forum ARE transparency enough.
David in NC is offline  
Old Friday 31st October 2014, 22:38   #24
ibramr
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Maryland, USA
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by David in NC View Post
Oh my GOD.



No "transparency" isn't best for everyone. .....
David,

The suggested transparency is a suggested cost and time effective approach to mitigate the absence of a recourse process. You do have an experience as a moderator, so perhaps you can suggest a better alternative. Thank you.
ibramr is offline  
Old Saturday 1st November 2014, 04:18   #25
David in NC
Registered User
 
David in NC's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jonas Ridge, NC USA
Posts: 712
Those signing up for a free forum are bound by the terms and conditions of the board or website, and on every forum I've been on since 1998 that including an understanding that moderators policed the boards as needed, issued warnings when appropriate, and their decisions were final.

Moderators get no compensation I'm aware of for this duty on this board. I think this is one of the least heavy-handed boards I've ever been on. I once read 4 PAGES of drivel about coffee here on a thread supposedly about binoculars. If ANYTHING they (mods) could easily be MORE visible and active. I am fairly new here and I have not lost sight of that but if I had a dollar for every bino thread hijacked over coffee, any member of the Beatles, etc. I'd buy the Zeiss SFs tomorrow.

So even though you carefully worded your suggestion to be as non-accusatory as possible, almost to the point of hypothetical example, AT SOME POINT you have to accept that the suggestion itself implies that unfairness has existed or will exist. Lets not mince words either...it is on the heels of Brock's departure and in a thread warning of general behaviors like we seen from him, so it appears it could be almost argumentative in his defense. No matter how "harmless" you worded it...

At the end of the day no one promised "recourse" on moderator decisions so how "cost-effective" IS IT then to create another time-consuming area that mods must then post to have their decisions publicly scrutinized? I think this has been the fairest board I've ever posted on... (mirror, mirror on the wall...)

No one even promised "fair" either but that doesn't mean I don't think they aren't MORE than fair, or that statement should be MISconstrued to imply the hint of unfairness here.

The whole suggestion however that mod decisions must be visible to all just everyone will know they were "fair" doesn't catch traction with me. To those still lobbying for such a scheme-it must be heck going through life wondering if the guy on the binocular sub-forum of one of the bird forums on the Internet had a warning or ban administered fairly...
David in NC is offline  
Advertisement
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
IE warning Kentbloke Computers, Birding Software And The Internet 36 Friday 19th December 2008 21:49
Warning Steve Birds & Birding 10 Saturday 2nd November 2002 17:00

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.27019906 seconds with 34 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 21:09.