[doug_newman]

I am wanting to get into more serious photography.
I am currently using a sony cybershot and tasco scpoe (Yes I know they are bad but hey it got me started and now I am hooked).
I want to get the Pentax PF-80-ED-A scope (I believe it is amazing).
My main question though is the camera. I want to get an SLR body camera so that over and above the scope I can doe some reasonable closer shots with say a 200mm lense and eventually work up too the bigger stuff.
I have seen a few conflicting reports on what camera to get.
I have looked at the Pentax ist range and the Canon eos 20D and the EOS 300d.
What is the camera to get. I see with the canon you can't use the LCD as a view finder, but all the good bird pics I see tend to be taken with Canon when it comes too the awesome stuff.
Any advice?

[stevo]

Hi Doug

IMHO I would wait & read the reviews regarding the new Canon eos 350D news of which can be found on www.dpreview.com hope this info helps.

Cheers Steve.

[doug_newman]

I was reading that I could get the EOS 300D plus a Sigma 150 - 500mm lense for just over $1000 for both.
I say forget digiscoping. o)

[Quacker]

I thought that, but what about the times when you need a 4000-11625mm lens equivalent?

I know that's an extreme example, but that's what the equivalent is with a 25-75 zoom on my Nikon ED78.

In fairness, your 500mm or 1000mm with suitable converter will be able to take pics of moving birds.

Nice one Doug, you gave me the excuse to have both!

Steve

[doug_newman]

Currently I have the Sony Cybershot and the tasco scope so although the pics are not that great, I have found that I can get some fairly good long distance shots.
I want to get the better scope later that I can use with whatever SLR camera I get.
The main thing i am trying to find out is what is a better by. The Pentax ist or the Canon EOS. I don't like the fact that on the canon you can't use the LCD as a view finder. Makes digiscoping with it not that easy, but then I see all the good bird pics are taken with the Canon. Is it prefered over the Pentax as a camera?

[fendetestass]

I have the EOS 300D. Soon you'll find the 200 mm "short". Be careful with the scope, as to some of them it can be adapted only with primary focus (no lens). For example, you can with swarovsky but not with Tele Vue, so be careful with what you want and you get.

[Jimmy C]

If you want an excellent all round combination, the EOS20D and a 100-400mm ISL takes some beating - just get a cover for that white lens !

[doug_newman]

Yes Jimmy, I would agree, but here we are talking $1000 for the combo I want and nearly $2500 for what you suggest. It is simply way out of mu budget.
Would I still not get good results with the 300D and the Sigma lense? I know I will not have image stabilizer them, but I can think of an IS lense much later when I can afford it.
Anyway the prices here in SA are so crazy that I could probably sell the Sigma lense here second hand for more than I get it off the net when i am ready to get an IS lens.

[doug_newman]

What is the best place on the net to buy cameras?

[Jimmy C]

Doug - had the same dilema myself; looking to upgrade from digiscoping to a full D-SLR. Looked at the EOS300D but it didn't have the flexibility of the 20D, auto, program and full manual control - also the 300D seemed a little flimsy to me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: find a good local canon dealer and try them both out and may be you'll do what I did and wait a little longer, save a bit more, and get a package that I won't grow out of for a while.

Good luck !

[doug_newman]

What does anyone think of the Sigma 170-500mm APO RF lense. I can get it for about $489.

[doug_newman]

Can I quote you too my widfe jimmy? lol

[Ragna]

Doug you cant use the LCD screen as a view finder on any digital SLR,you look through the view finder straight out through the lens .

[Ragna]

New Canon 350d and 50-500 sigma would be a good combination if your budget can manage it.Could try buying on the net WWW .b&hphotovideo.com in America is well recommend.

[raulroa]

I suggest you go to a camera shop and try out a few cameras and lenses. This way, you can see how they work and what is best for your budget. Whatever you get, remember that to get a sharp photo, you must always shoot at least as fast a shutter speed as the maximum length of the lens (a 200 mm needs minimum 1/250 sec; a 400 needs 1/500 sec MINIMUM, etc.) As long as you have a steady grip and a monopod, there is no reason to get "unsharp" photos, unless you are not focused properly on the subject. I suggest you begin with the best Canon you can afford since the camera is what records your images. Then you can get one lens at a time until you build up to bigger and better glass. Or, if you go birding once a month for example, you can rent a long lens for the day to use with you high-end camera.

[Monte Bleasdale]

Originally Posted by Ragna

Doug you cant use the LCD screen as a view finder on any digital SLR,you look through the view finder straight out through the lens .

Graham (and other good people),
I`m currently using a conventional digiscoping rig (coolpix 4500 + Swaro scope). Precise focusing as everyone knows is not easy as when viewing the LCD screen you are looking at a pixelated image.
When you use the viewfinder on a digital SLR, I assume you get a crystal clear image as in conventional film photographpy? If so, if you were using a DSLR for digiscoping (and thereby using manual focus), do you also get a pin sharp image when using the viewfinder once you`ve focused correctly, or do you still see a pixelated image?

Any advice would be most appreciated!

Monte

[Ragna]

Monte the screen on most DSLRs has a crop factor eg on a Canon 300-350-20d its only 60% the size of the screen on a film SLR so make manual focus in poor light is a little more difficult.So if using your scope attached to a DSLR i think the image you would see would not be pixelated but manual focus mightnot be that easy because of the dark image remembering the magnification of the scope.Although i've been digiscoping for a couple of years i've never tried a DSLR on one.T he only pictures ive seen on here taken this way are from NEIL in Australia and he uses a Nikon with a Swarovski ATS.

[Monte Bleasdale]

Originally Posted by Ragna

Monte the screen on most DSLRs has a crop factor eg on a Canon 300-350-20d its only 60% the size of the screen on a film SLR so make manual focus in poor light is a little more difficult.So if using your scope attached to a DSLR i think the image you would see would not be pixelated but manual focus mightnot be that easy because of the dark image remembering the magnification of the scope.Although i've been digiscoping for a couple of years i've never tried a DSLR on one.T he only pictures ive seen on here taken this way are from NEIL in Australia and he uses a Nikon with a Swarovski ATS.

Thanks Graham, that`s quite interesting. Has Neil in Austrailia posted on this forum to your knowledge as I`d like to email him?

Cheers,
Monte

[Davjo]

Hi Doug

I am no expert by any means, however I can give you some first hand experience of the PF-80a and the *ist DS.

I have only handheld the camera to the scope which has the Pentax 20-60 zoom. My very next purchase will be an adapter to hold the 2 together. It is perfectly possible to get good shots handheld providing the light is ok. It is very difficult on a dull gloomy day.

I also use an old Canon A30 which performs better in the low light situation, there is another really good thread (sorry I can't find it now) which explains the different sensitivities of a dSLR vs compact digital and the light, hopefully someone here remembers it. I may also get a new compact digital camera (to replace the old Canon A30) which will fulfil 2 roles, low light digiscoping and easy to carry around utility camera.

I attach 2 pics, the chaffinch taken on a very dull day, the other a chimney about 150-200m away on a sunny day (rare here!). I have done nothing to the images but a small crop and resize to be able to post them. I am still a very new beginner so they are not brilliant, but I think they can show the issue and potential of the combination. I have not yet managed to get a sunny day with a bird as the equipment is all only a few weeks old. Both were shot at 20x on the scope. The kit lens with the Pentax has to be opened up to almost max zoom to get no vignetting - which makes the camera lens f5.6. Light must be good to get this to work well handheld.

I hope my experience helps a little - I did buy the camera immediately before the Canon 350d was announced and thought I'd messed up, however I am very happy with what i've got and I do not regret it at all.

Also if it helps you, PM me for the details of the guy in New York who provided the equipment.

Regards
David

[psilo]

Doug I had a similar problem to you. In the end I bought the canon 300d with a 75-300mm lens. I would go with the others and say dont get the 200mm. I think the 300mm is a very good starting compromise Anyone who knocks the 300d simply hasnt taken the time to really get to know the camera. I have only had mine for a few weeks and I have had some stunning results. Extremely sharp focus,(the A1 servo on sports mode is outstanding for action/flight shots) excellent exposure, very flexible on the manual controls. The only critism I have is that its processing time is slower between shots than your more expensive camera but you only really feel that for action shots. I got my whole outfit for £530 including the 300mm lens. You may not get one so cheap but it can certainly be done for £650 at the most.
One of the best places to check out for price is warehouse express.

[psilo]

Here are two of my recent photos with the canon 300d

[Neil]

Doug,
I started out with a Bushell scope and a Nikon CP990 about 5 years ago and I moved up to Kowa (non-fluorite lens), then old Swarovski and now new Swarovski. Along the way I picked up the Nikon D100. I got good shots with all of them in the right circumstances but I wouldn't give up my Swarovskis. Today I went out with my D100 plus Sigma 170-500mm APO, the Swarovski ATS80HD scope with 20-60zoom and KyoceraSL400R and the Swarovski SLR adapter. The light was very bad all day with light mist . I used all the technolgy in different combinations and the worst results by far was the D100 on the scope. Shooting from a hide the closest birds wete 20m away. The digicam on the scope gave me the best results shooting at iso100. With the D100 on the scope you have to manually focus and expose and even with 800iso the shutter speed was around 1/300 which is a bit low for tracking feeding waders(a 1200mm,f10 lens) and the resting waders were much further away. It was ok for the spoonbills. The conditions were not good for the the Sigma either which likes good light and closeups. If I was starting again with not much gear I would get straight into the Canon/Nikon DSLR with 100/80-400mm image stabilised lens. 300mm is a bit short for many birds( I also have the Nikon 300mmf4 ED lens). If money is tight you shouldn't try to do too much at the same time. There are good reasons why you don't see many good photos posted on Birdforum taken with a DSLR and a scope. The attached spoonbill was taken with the D100 on the scope and was the best out of about 100 rubbish shots. Hope this helps, Neil.

[Gashead]

Originally Posted by Ragna

Monte the screen on most DSLRs has a crop factor eg on a Canon 300-350-20d its only 60% the size of the screen on a film SLR so make manual focus in poor light is a little more difficult.So if using your scope attached to a DSLR i think the image you would see would not be pixelated but manual focus mightnot be that easy because of the dark image remembering the magnification of the scope.Although i've been digiscoping for a couple of years i've never tried a DSLR on one.T he only pictures ive seen on here taken this way are from NEIL in Australia and he uses a Nikon with a Swarovski ATS.

You may be getting confused Monte. As stated above the screen has nothing to do with focusing on DSLRs (at least not any I have used)....its only used to review. The screen is not cropped it is reduced in size. The crop factor refers to the comparative size of the sensor to 35mm film meaning my 10D (which has a 1.6x crop factor) so at 400mm it is effectively a 640mm.

[Chuck A. Walla]

Originally Posted by doug_newman

Yes Jimmy, I would agree, but here we are talking $1000 for the combo I want and nearly $2500 for what you suggest. It is simply way out of mu budget.
Would I still not get good results with the 300D and the Sigma lense? I know I will not have image stabilizer them, but I can think of an IS lense much later when I can afford it.
Anyway the prices here in SA are so crazy that I could probably sell the Sigma lense here second hand for more than I get it off the net when i am ready to get an IS lens.

I think you can get excellent results with the 300d and Sigma lens. I would seriously consider the 350 however due to quicker startup time.

I shot a coolpix 4500 with Meade spotting scope for a couple of years. Just last week I upgraded to a Pentax DS with Sigma 75-300mm. The improvement was breathtaking. The 3 sec. Startup time delay with the 300d would be limiting I think but the new Canons, Nikons or Pentaxs eliminate this completely.

Focusing is also vastly improved over the 4500. You really need manual focus for birding.

I got the Pentax because I felt that it adapted better to my Meade scope and the price, ($750.00 at B&H without the lens). I got the Body, kit lens, 1 gig card, plus 300mm zoom for around $1200.00.

Check out the reviews at

http://www.dpreview.com/

bob

[ghocking]

I agree with Chuck, the 350D is a lot better buy than the 300D. The start up time is instant with the 350, but you seem to wait forever with the 300D. I also find the download on the 350 with USB 2 is great, it was so slow on the 300D. The 300D is still a great camera, I used mine for 12 months with no problems, but since buying a 350D body and its start up time, I have traded in my 300D for a 20D body.
With regards to the 75-300 Canon lens, if you are going to hand hold it I would recommend to IS version, IS really works. I have just got the 100-400 L IS which is heavy, but with IS it seems to rock steady, but looking for a good day to really try out hand held, which does not happen often in England.