[alcedo.atthis]

Steve you closed the thread a day early.



Mark, have you seen this :-



http://forum.purplemartin.org/forumarchives/archive/SY-Mproblems.htm



It was written by Steve Kroenke in 5/29/00.



It seems that this gentleman is one of the most renown in the field of Purple Martin conservation.

I bring your attention to the following :-



"In some cases where recently hatched martins have mysteriously disappeared, house sparrows, starlings or predators may not be the culprits. It may be one of the unmated SY males that is roving through the colony, seeking territory of his own. He may have slipped into an unguarded nest and removed the young. Fortunately, this "infanticide" behaviour does not appear to be common, at least it has not been so in my colonies. But unmated SY males without territory can be a potential threat to recently hatched baby martins."



Obviously, for the content, the entire article is worth a read. The consensus now, considering this report is 5 years old, is that the "roving unmated SY males" are more of a threat than they were originally though to be.



So the enjoyment of torturing and killing of the Starlings and House Sparrows turns out to be more of an inhumane act than was originally thought. There may be no requirement to remove them in the first place, never mind removing them due to ignorance of the actual facts of the overall situation.

PS I note that you have never claimed to "enjoy" the destruction of these species, or any other for that matter, but please do stop defending an indefensible position.



Regards



Malky

[Draco]

Hello Malky,

We continue.

Steve is an excellent writer and has a vast knowledge of many bird species. I did not read the link that you provided, as I usually read all of Steve's posts and have probably seen that one. Steve is a great writer, but he tends to go on and I'm shy on time.

Steve is known for his work with Purple Martins and their various threats. He notes one of them in your quote. It would be stupidity on the part of any Purple Martin landlord to say that SY (Second Year - one year old) male Purple Martins never cause "infanticide". This is and has been a known factor in the deaths of young Martins. It has been mentioned that it is not common. You have done your homework. You know how many different factors play into this.

So the enjoyment of torturing and killing of the Starlings and House Sparrows turns out to be more of an inhumane act than was originally thought. There may be no requirement to remove them in the first place, never mind removing them due to ignorance of the actual facts of the overall situation.

PS I note that you have never claimed to "enjoy" the destruction of these species, or any other for that matter, but please do stop defending an indefensible position.

Malky, I thought that we had this sorted out. You have done more research than anyone on this board about the Purple Martin, yet you still miss the boat. Who "enjoys torturing and killing S&S", me? There is a reason to remove them - THEY KILL OUR BIRDS!!! PROVE ME WRONG!!! YOU CAN'T DO IT!!!

I'm sorry, Malky, but I had expected more of you. Call me ignorant again and I might get angry.

Mark

[led_snapper]

Anyway they aint their birds, they don't own them do they?

[MikeDale]

Ok Mr Angry, what are you going to do when a Peregrine sit's on top of your Martin house picking off your precious Purple Martins?

[Draco]

No, they don't "own" them, but the Purple Martin depends on humans for housing. Witout housing provided by humans they would be extinct in the eastern U.S. These birds have site fidelity and return to the same colony year after year from their annual migration to Brazil. They are VERY friendly and enjoy human contact. Some adult birds allow you to handle them.

Mark

[Draco]

I live in the country and the Peregrines live in the city. I have a resident Cooper's that prefers Mourning Doves over the rest of my feeder birds and I have plenty of Doves. The Cooper's is welcome to them.

Mark

[MikeDale]

Originally Posted by Draco

I live in the country and the Peregrines live in the city. I have a resident Cooper's that prefers Mourning Doves over the rest of my feeder birds and I have plenty of Doves. The Cooper's is welcome to them.

Mark

So you've got it in for Mourning Doves as well as Sparrows and Starlings! You never answered the question either.

[Draco]

I don't "have it in" for Mourning Doves, the Cooper's Hawk does.

I did answer the question. The Peregrines would not leave the city, except during spring and fall migration. I don't have cliffs or tall buildings that attract Peregrines where I live. The Purple Martins migrate during different times than the Peregrines do, so there isn't much chance in them meeting.

I am on record for defending birds of prey from people who would do them harm. Go back to the endless thread #1 and you will see that others from this forum found that to be a fact.

Mark

[MikeDale]

So suppose your Coopers Hawk decides it likes Purple Martin meat? You going to take him out?

[alcedo.atthis]

"I'm sorry, Malky, but I had expected more of you. Call me ignorant again and I might get angry."







Mark, all I am willing to say, after reading all of what you have posted, you seem to be suffering from a total lack of confidence, in relation to the subject which you vehemently claim you have knowledge of.
Your miserable attempts to proselytize only reinforces that opinion.
In the short time which I have spent researching the subject, I am extremely confident that I have more knowledge of the said subject than you have to date.
Now, do your dam-nest, get angry!! but research your chosen subject first, you need to, as you are ignorant of the facts.


Regards



Malky

[Draco]

MikeDale,

No:

I am on record for defending birds of prey from people who would do them harm. Go back to the endless thread #1 and you will see that others from this forum found that to be a fact.

Malky,

You didn't call me ignorant this time, but came close.

I have provided facts backed up with sources. You have read posts backed up with opinion. Think what you want to. Then get me some facts to back up your opinions and I may be interested. Until that happens I don't think that you "know" squat. Find me something in print to prove what you believe. Just one, Malky. You can't do it. I'll keep telling you over and over that I have every reputable source behind me and you have nothing at all. Just your emotions and opinions. These are worthless. I know. My federal and state governments know. Our birding organizations know. Our universities know. You don't know. You don't have a single source that backs up your pitiful opinions. You rely on your feelings which are clouding your common sense. The fact that I have provided link after link on the subject proves that I have done my research. The fact that you have provided nothing proves that you are wrong and can only offer conjecture to this thread.

Mark

[TWM]

Round 10 'Seconds out!'

[affe22]

While I don't think Draco is making himself look good or making a decent argument on this one, I have to agree that the killing of starlings and house sparrows isn't exactly a bad thing in the United States. While they may not be heavy nest predators, the are extremely good at out competing the native birds. It seems like all I see some days in town are house sparrows and starlings. You have to remember, these birds are not really supposed to be here.

[me1000]

Is this not unlike the grey squirrel situation in the U.K., should we stop at nothing to rid our shores of these evil pests.Or let them overtake as we have to the demise of our native red, which way is right or wrong?.

All I know is my children love to see squirrels red or grey it matters not
me

[mothman]

Originally Posted by me1000

Is this not unlike the grey squirrel situation in the U.K., should we stop at nothing to rid our shores of these evil pests.Or let them overtake as we have to the demise of our native red, which way is right or wrong?.

All I know is my children love to see squirrels red or grey it matters not
me

I always get uneasy when the term"evil"is used in this manner,I don't think that any animal is inherently evil just by doing what it is designed to do, (albeit in the wrong place).

Colin.

[farinosa]

I've entered this thread a little late, but the original off-forum threads referenced in the beginning didn't surprise me at all. When I was a boy growing up in Texas, the first time I ever saw or heard of Purple Martins was when a friend of my parents put up a martin house on his rural property. This guy was, (still is), a real redneck and hunter, probably shot and killed at least one of every legal game species on the continent. He didn't put up the nest box because he was a birder. Moreso 'cause of the old PR claim that birds would rid his property of mosquitos. I'm not saying he would be one to waste his time shooting non-native songbirds, even for good reason. Just that the cross section of people providing martin nestboxes falls way outside the margins of who we would call birders even in the casual sense. On that note, you're bound to get a few pinheads who take the opportunity to play with their guns because his friend Bubba down the road read somewheres that "there aint no bag limit on them glossy black 'uns with the yeller beaks". The pendulum swing both ways from people as such to those who feed and harbor feral cat colonies.

[Mary Evelyn]

Originally Posted by mothman

I always get uneasy when the term"evil"is used in this manner,I don't think that any animal is inherently evil just by doing what it is designed to do, (albeit in the wrong place).

Colin.

Draco - I am a yes girl again.Colin speaks sense.

Malky,Speaks sense.

You speak volumes - but I am lost for words.

[alcedo.atthis]

"Is this not unlike the grey squirrel situation in the U.K., should we stop at nothing to rid our shores of these evil pests. Or let them overtake as we have to the demise of our native red, which way is right or wrong?"





Depends on your own perspective. If you leave them, fine, they will either over-run the Reds, and that will be that.
We will loose the Reds, or nature will intervene and redress the balance.
If you wish to do something and control their numbers, what would you wish to do.

Do you introduce a viral carrying parasite such as the myxomatosis -v- Rabbit thing.

If you catch them, then as it is illegal to let them go back into the wild, then you have to put them into a sanctuary or kill them.

If you do not wish to see the suffering such as the myxoma' bit, then catching and killing is an alternative to outright killing which is impracticable in inner cities.

Going down this route, do you do it in a quiet manner, humanely, or do you act in a state of bravado, by openly boasting that if they are stupid enough to come near you, you, in turn, will pull off their legs while they are still alive, or pull off their tails while still alive, so any other interlopers can hear the anguish and pain inflicted, shoot them openly so any and all others will see what is going to happen to them as they are next in line, rig up a power circuit, so when they approach, and contact is made, you can watch the fur on their ears smoulder as the voltage takes effect and the life drains out of them, while you calmly down another beer.

As you have stated, "All I know is my children love to see squirrels red or grey it matters not" ask them, if it was their choice, what would they decide, as it is them, and their children, who are going to inherit this problem.

As with many species, interference by man may be a necessity, as it was probably man who created the problem in the first place, but man has the intelligence to "do it in a quiet manner, humanely".

We all know man is killing world-wide, as man has this habit of utilising death as a means to any end, that he supposes to, but there is no need to boast about it, and that was the problem with what was posted in the Purple Martin forums, not the actual killing(s) itself, but the enjoyment of doing so in many less than humane ways.
In addition, we have found nothing that states there is a real or urgent need to kill off the House Sparrows and Starlings to enhance the protection of the Purple Martin, or any other "endemic" American species.


Regards



Malky

PS do let us know your children’s preferred method.

[Mary Evelyn]

Originally Posted by alcedo.atthis

"Is this not unlike the grey squirrel situation in the U.K., should we stop at nothing to rid our shores of these evil pests. Or let them overtake as we have to the demise of our native red, which way is right or wrong?"





Depends on your own perspective. If you leave them, fine, they will either over-run the Reds, and that will be that.
We will loose the Reds, or nature will intervene and redress the balance.
If you wish to do something and control their numbers, what would you wish to do.




Do you introduce a viral carrying parasite such as the myxomatosis -v- Rabbit thing.

If you catch them, then as it is illegal to let them go back into the wild, then you have to put them into a sanctuary or kill them.

If you do not wish to see the suffering such as the myxoma' bit, then catching and killing is an alternative to outright killing which is impracticable in inner cities.

Going down this route, do you do it in a quiet manner, humanely, or do you act in a state of bravado, by openly boasting that if they are stupid enough to come near you, you, in turn, will pull off their legs while they are still alive, or pull off their tails while still alive, so any other interlopers can hear the anguish and pain inflicted, shoot them openly so any and all others will see what is going to happen to them as they are next in line, rig up a power circuit, so when they approach, and contact is made, you can watch the fur on their ears smoulder as the voltage takes effect and the life drains out of them, while you calmly down another beer.

As you have stated, "All I know is my children love to see squirrels red or grey it matters not" ask them, if it was their choice, what would they decide, as it is them, and their children, who are going to inherit this problem.

As with many species, interference by man may be a necessity, as it was probably man who created the problem in the first place, but man has the intelligence to "do it in a quiet manner, humanely".

We all know man is killing world-wide, as man has this habit of utilising death as a means to any end, that he supposes to, but there is no need to boast about it, and that was the problem with what was posted in the Purple Martin forums, not the actual killing(s) itself, but the enjoyment of doing so in many less than humane ways.
In addition, we have found nothing that states there is a real or urgent need to kill off the House Sparrows and Starlings to enhance the protection of the Purple Martin, or any other "endemic" American species.


Regards



Malky

PS do let us know your children’s preferred method.

Well said Malky,

Me - (as Draco said ) being a yes girl , agrees fully with everything you have written and Draco, this is the opinion of those of us that feel for all wild-life.You are something else...Would like to say that my last post was edited , suppose that was my fault for being too honest Draco.

[paul cracknell]

If a species is introduced in the 'wrong' place by man and then is proven to cause real problems to the native species (as with Grey Squirrel and Ruddy Duck in the U.K.), then we should try to rid ourselves of them. If they arrive naturally, then nature should be left to its own devices.

Can't we just swap our Greys and Ruddies for their 'Sparrers' and Starlings?!

Originally Posted by me1000

Is this not unlike the grey squirrel situation in the U.K., should we stop at nothing to rid our shores of these evil pests.Or let them overtake as we have to the demise of our native red, which way is right or wrong?.

All I know is my children love to see squirrels red or grey it matters not
me

[Mary Evelyn]

It seems that humans decide who lives and dies.

Survival of the fittest.......This is not the case anymore.


Man seems to have taken it upon himself and it is he who decides the outcome.

Thats how sad this world is today.

[Draco]

Here is a bit of "real death" here in the U.S. Yesterday I had a Eastern Bluebird nest with five perfect eggs - my first. This is what I came home from work to. What kind of nest is on top of the pecked Eastern Bluebird eggs? If you guessed House Sparrow you win. The other three eggs were pecked and tossed out. I don't know if the adult bird survived protecting its nest. Will I kill that House Sparrow? HE double L yes! Will I ENJOY it? YOU BET!!! Will I gloat about it? EVERY CHANCE THAT I GET!!! Am I angry? I'm shaking MAD! Will this strengthen my resolve to exterminate these flying rats? ABSOLUTELY! These vermin need to be killed at every chance we get! Don't tell me that I don't know a HOSP nest when I see one and don't tell me that anything else may have destroyed this nest. Tell me I'm wrong. I'll tell you that you are nuts. I'm joining the boasters club. I'm going to work toward a state wide plan to kill as many House Sparrows and European Starlings as we can kill. I'm going to work at establishing city ordinances that make it illegal to knowingly reproduce these non-natives on individual's properties. This one HOSP just made a lot of trouble for a lot of HOSPS. I have a plan to enact a state law that requires business owners to remove nests and plug up nesting cavities for S&S in our cities. My attention is going to turn to a national awareness about this scourge and try to minimize the terrible impact that these blood thirsty killers have. I made one Website and my next will be more important. Trapping programs in our cities, getting hunters interested in target shooting small unprotected birds . . . I am getting a LOT of GOOD ideas.

This is why you have seen and heard what you don't like. You don't have to live with it, but we do and it makes me/us sick!!! This photo will be posted on every Bluebird and Purple Martin board in the nation to stir others into killing more of these scum beaks! This is why people boast about their kills. This is SO sad! This is SO evil. This is SO wrong! We provide housing for our native birds to come home to this. None of you have any right to tell us that what we do is wrong, because it isn't. It is right and necessary if we want anything other than your %#$$&*^ S&S here! Here are my dead babies. Perhaps you will enjoy the photo.

[Edward woodwood]

ok 'Draco'

just go away and do it then.

I don't think posts like that will convince anyone, win you any friends or do any good at all other than to help you lose a bit of the anger you obviously have

this thread is going to go nowhere and provoke lot of ill will I think...maybe an idea for Steve to close it agian?

Tim

[GreatHornedOwl]

Originally Posted by Draco

Here is a bit of "real death" here in the U.S. Yesterday I had a Eastern Bluebird nest with five perfect eggs - my first. This is what I came home from work to. What kind of nest is on top of the pecked Eastern Bluebird eggs? If you guessed House Sparrow you win. The other three eggs were pecked and tossed out. I don't know if the adult bird survived protecting its nest. Will I kill that House Sparrow? HE double L yes! Will I ENJOY it? YOU BET!!! Will I gloat about it? EVERY CHANCE THAT I GET!!! Am I angry? I'm shaking MAD! Will this strengthen my resolve to exterminate these flying rats? ABSOLUTELY! These vermin need to be killed at every chance we get! Don't tell me that I don't know a HOSP nest when I see one and don't tell me that anything else may have destroyed this nest. Tell me I'm wrong. I'll tell you that you are nuts. I'm joining the boasters club. I'm going to work toward a state wide plan to kill as many House Sparrows and European Starlings as we can kill. I'm going to work at establishing city ordinances that make it illegal to knowingly reproduce these non-natives on individual's properties. This one HOSP just made a lot of trouble for a lot of HOSPS. I have a plan to enact a state law that requires business owners to remove nests and plug up nesting cavities for S&S in our cities. My attention is going to turn to a national awareness about this scourge and try to minimize the terrible impact that these blood thirsty killers have. I made one Website and my next will be more important. Trapping programs in our cities, getting hunters interested in target shooting small unprotected birds . . . I am getting a LOT of GOOD ideas.

This is why you have seen and heard what you don't like. You don't have to live with it, but we do and it makes me/us sick!!! This photo will be posted on every Bluebird and Purple Martin board in the nation to stir others into killing more of these scum beaks! This is why people boast about their kills. This is SO sad! This is SO evil. This is SO wrong! We provide housing for our native birds to come home to this. None of you have any right to tell us that what we do is wrong, because it isn't. It is right and necessary if we want anything other than your %#$$&*^ S&S here! Here are my dead babies. Perhaps you will enjoy the photo.

.... WoooooW Draco ! All them negative waves !!!!... Just relax buddy - try being a little bit "Zen" my friend .

[crispycreme]

Originally Posted by GreatHornedOwl

All them negative waves

You sound like Sgt. Oddball from "Kelly's Heroes".