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Old Sunday 15th May 2016, 07:45   #1
Glimmer
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Do the Apo HG play in the same league as the true alphas?

I mean Zeiss Ht, Swaro El, Nikon Edg.. Le are in the league of Conquest, etc

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Old Monday 16th May 2016, 01:04   #2
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No, they are not in the same class. Not much talk about the Minox around here, they are
a mid-range binocular.

Jerry
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Old Monday 16th May 2016, 06:44   #3
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Jerry, that is a bit harsh .....

The x43 HG APO's are arguably Alpha class ...... Made In Germany, top grade Schott fluorite ED glass, aspheric lenses and top quality construction. Having a silver based prism coating, they perhaps lack the last ~3-5% of brightness of the leading Zeiss SF and HT, but that still puts them on about a par with the Nikon EDG, and with a similar warm view too. Fov is very good in the 10x, and good in the 8x. ER is good, very nice focusing and the light weight is class leading exceptional.

Perhaps the only thing they have sometimes been 'pinged' on in all the material I have ever read on them is skimping on the prisms so that there is a few percent truncation evident. Having said that, they do have genuine 43 mm objectives which would compensate somewhat, and nice dark exit pupil surrounds.

http://www.optics4birding.com/minox-...rs-review.aspx

https://translate.googleusercontent....aSIm-HREJLrnPg

https://translate.googleusercontent....HyWzw9C-CYY5vA

I think one of the major popularity problems may lie in the ~$1800 pricing point ...... With more buyers opting for slightly more brightness (Zeiss HT) and flatter, slightly wider fields of the Zeiss SF, and Swaro SV at the cost of greater weight and expense.

They are a cut above the Conquest HD's, with perhaps their toughest competition being the underrated Vortex Razor HD APO'S which can be had for 2/3rds of the price ......

It is a shame that they don't feature in more A/B reviews with the top dawgs .....


Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Monday 16th May 2016 at 07:51. Reason: add 10x43 review
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Old Monday 16th May 2016, 15:57   #4
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Jerry, that is a bit harsh .....

The x43 HG APO's are arguably Alpha class ...... Made In Germany, top grade Schott fluorite ED glass, aspheric lenses and top quality construction. Having a silver based prism coating, they perhaps lack the last ~3-5% of brightness of the leading Zeiss SF and HT, but that still puts them on about a par with the Nikon EDG, and with a similar warm view too. Fov is very good in the 10x, and good in the 8x. ER is good, very nice focusing and the light weight is class leading exceptional.

Perhaps the only thing they have sometimes been 'pinged' on in all the material I have ever read on them is skimping on the prisms so that there is a few percent truncation evident. Having said that, they do have genuine 43 mm objectives which would compensate somewhat, and nice dark exit pupil surrounds.

http://www.optics4birding.com/minox-...rs-review.aspx

https://translate.googleusercontent....aSIm-HREJLrnPg

https://translate.googleusercontent....HyWzw9C-CYY5vA

I think one of the major popularity problems may lie in the ~$1800 pricing point ...... With more buyers opting for slightly more brightness (Zeiss HT) and flatter, slightly wider fields of the Zeiss SF, and Swaro SV at the cost of greater weight and expense.

They are a cut above the Conquest HD's, with perhaps their toughest competition being the underrated Vortex Razor HD APO'S which can be had for 2/3rds of the price ......

It is a shame that they don't feature in more A/B reviews with the top dawgs .....


Chosun
Many thanks. I will read the reviews later. What does skimping of the prisms means? Or what does ir affect in the field?

The thing is that i can get a pair for 1000 eur.

Best regards and thanks again

PD: do you know the brightness vs Zeiss t* fl 10x42?

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Old Monday 16th May 2016, 17:59   #5
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Many thanks. I will read the reviews later. What does skimping of the prisms means? Or what does ir affect in the field?

The thing is that i can get a pair for 1000 eur.

Best regards and thanks again

PD: do you know the brightness vs Zeiss t* fl 10x42?

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'Skimping' means to cut the margin of error with the size of the prisms to a minimum in order to save weight (which all designers and manufacturers try and optimize). This means that some units which are at the limits of tolerance in assembly alignment and collimation may exhibit slight truncation of the exit pupil. It may not show up in all units, unless the design is really 'stingy' and the makers are really trying to push the limits. This is hardly detectable by eye in minor cases and shows as a slight straight edge to a minor section of the circumference of the exit pupil light bundle. This has the effect of reducing brightness. You would not notice it in the field.

I have only read reports of this for the Minox from one source, and that was Allbinos when they tested the HG model and that was only small anyway. Other reviewers have found perfectly round exit pupils - so no loss of brightness. You should note that the 43mm objectives of these Minoxs have a light gathering area that is ~5% greater than the more normal 42mm size objectives, so that if your eyes are younger, or clouds cause shadows, or you are peering deep under canopy etc such that your eyes dilate past 4.2mm then the Minox will be as bright or brighter to your eyes than other bins of the same class.

The Zeiss FL with it's A-K prisms will show a very slight benefit in transmission at 555nm (daylight standard, green part of the light spectrum) which may not be readily detectable in the field. It is thought that differences of less than ~ 6% in transmission are not detectable by the human eye as differences in brightness in the field. Certainly every report I have read of the Minox APO's says that they are a match for "brightness, clarity, and sharpness" of the rest of the x42mm Alpha class binoculars.

They are also easily the lightest of the lot and compact too - Leica UVHD+ sized. The 10x43 APO Minox is probably the pick, and I would think the only bin that would appear brighter in the field is the superb Zeiss HT. If you can get a new APO Minox pair for 1000 Eur and they check out ok, I would say go for it !! Sounds like a great deal for bins that you will be very happy with :))


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Old Tuesday 17th May 2016, 01:19   #6
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Jerry, that is a bit harsh .....

The x43 HG APO's are arguably Alpha class ...... Made In Germany, top grade Schott fluorite ED glass, aspheric lenses and top quality construction. Having a silver based prism coating, they perhaps lack the last ~3-5% of brightness of the leading Zeiss SF and HT, but that still puts them on about a par with the Nikon EDG, and with a similar warm view too. Fov is very good in the 10x, and good in the 8x. ER is good, very nice focusing and the light weight is class leading exceptional.

Perhaps the only thing they have sometimes been 'pinged' on in all the material I have ever read on them is skimping on the prisms so that there is a few percent truncation evident. Having said that, they do have genuine 43 mm objectives which would compensate somewhat, and nice dark exit pupil surrounds.

http://www.optics4birding.com/minox-...rs-review.aspx

https://translate.googleusercontent....aSIm-HREJLrnPg

https://translate.googleusercontent....HyWzw9C-CYY5vA

I think one of the major popularity problems may lie in the ~$1800 pricing point ...... With more buyers opting for slightly more brightness (Zeiss HT) and flatter, slightly wider fields of the Zeiss SF, and Swaro SV at the cost of greater weight and expense.

They are a cut above the Conquest HD's, with perhaps their toughest competition being the underrated Vortex Razor HD APO'S which can be had for 2/3rds of the price ......

It is a shame that they don't feature in more A/B reviews with the top dawgs .....


Chosun
Chosun:

Interesting, have you had any experience with the Minox HG?
Or is this your armchair review.

Tell us how you find they compare to the alphas ?

Jerry
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Old Tuesday 17th May 2016, 02:41   #7
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Jerry, it's the Minox 10x43 APO HG asph. , not to be confused with the lesser HG model, or bog stock varieties. I like them, though I prefer an entirely neutral colour rendition, and in the last year or so, the game at the forefront of the battle for Alpha supremacy has moved on a smidge, what with Leica adding HT prism glass etc, to their UltraVid HD+ range - something I would like to see Minox do too. That said, they are definitely in the Alpha 'league', and arguably still leading the light weight, compact design compromise feature set category. As you full well know, the only view that actually matters is the one to the end user - so Glimmer will be the final judge.

The best we can do (as fellow inhabitants of the human gene pool) is pass on our experiences, or those of others, look at the physical specifications and other 'scientific' testing - such as from Allbinos, Gijs, etc. Others as you will know, will seek to be contrarian, or limit valid opinion to what they themselves have directly compared etc, over defined timeframes in defined conditions - all the while conveniently missing the fact that they are doing all of this with their eyes only! Yet still others have no intention beyond promoting and/or defending their own personal favourites, or even personal fiefdoms! etc, etc, etc ...... :))

If you read and comprehended my post you will see that it does not claim to be a review, or even a comparison. Personally I like the 10x for me, but find that it has a compromise for me ..... but that's just me, and will hardly help Glimmer. As you will know, all binoculars contain compromises somewhere along the way, so suitability is very much an individual matter.

If you clicked on the links I provided, you will see that one is a 'review' by ~North American owling mob - optics4birding. The other two more substantial, and are by Binomania's Piergiovanni Salimbeni in Italy - and I know that even if his reviews are at different times with different bins that at least he is conducting them in the same Italian mountainside settings, with the same group of friends, and so his opinions are something that I would rate highly.

Considering they go for over $1800 at Optics Planet, and Adorama, I think at 1000 Eur they are great value, and if that is for a perfect, new unit, and the Eye Relief suits and light weight is at the top of the list, then I would snap them up pronto! :))

Some other higher current pricing for comparison ....
http://www.sale-telescopes.com/produ...inoculars.html
http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/M...-BR-Binoculars

Let us know how they go Glimmer .....


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Old Tuesday 17th May 2016, 13:24   #8
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Many thanks again Chosun.

Very appreciated info for me.

Will keep you inform...
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Old Tuesday 17th May 2016, 22:40   #9
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The binomania reviews look great CJ. The Schott glass used in the APO HG ASPH was discussed in 2009.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=143409

This is what Henry commented back then

Quote:
Originally Posted by henry link View Post
My hat is off to Minox for actually revealing the type of ED glass they use in this binocular, however Schott PK52 is a minimal ED glass, equivalent to Ohara FPL51 with an Abbe number of 81.6. It couldn't be used to make a "real" APO objective at binocular focal ratios, no matter how many elements or what mating glasses are used. By "real" APO I mean all colors focused within the Airy disc or very close to it. But then a 10x binocular doesn't need to be a real APO. APO sure sounds good though.
I have never tried the Minox APO HG before and for the price of $1600 I would consider the Swaro SLC first. The close focus of the Minox at 8 ft is better than SLC's 10 ft and the Minox is 3 ounces lighter, but I am not sure how well the Minox match SLC's performance. The Swaro SLC is widely lauded as an amazing bin for the prize, almost equaling the SV sans field flatteners and close focus.
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 04:17   #10
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Thanks Sub

I remember seeing the details of the ED glass somewhere, but can't find it now - can anyone provide a link? (the one in the thread you quoted is dead for me) ......[EDIT] ah-ha! perhaps it was here ....... http://www.bestbinocularsreviews.com...binoculars.php
This glass type listed is correct, as it is the same as in the official Minox press release .... 4th link down ..... https://www.google.com.au/search?sit...41.wTR5nVcLZAA

As we know all ED glass and even APO designs are not created equal. That quoted glass spec does seem low down on the ED ladder .....

They are certainly not leading the Alpha pack when it comes to CA handling, but then they are the shortest player in the league (Leica UVHD+ sized), and the lightest by far (over 4oz's or over 100 grams lighter than the much lauded new 'lightweight Zeiss SF!), so the inherent design compromise was always going to land on that side of the fence. For me (very susceptible to CA) that is the weakest point of these binoculars, along with marginal ER for me and my glasses, and the closed bridge ergos take some getting used to for me personally.

However, for the low prices being discussed, nothing else on the market comes close for a light weight package, so I still think it's a great deal .....

Minox really needs to pull its finger out with an update!
* Top of the top spec Ultra FL glass to improve the CA performance.
* Dielectric prism coatings to improve brightness and colour balance.
* HT glass, in prisms to lift the lower frequencies of the light spectrum and provide better colour balance, neutral colour rendition.
* Re-Index and upgrade coatings to suit all of the above - maintaining colour neutrality and optimizing brightness, and providing that all important sparkle-arkle to the view! .
* Dual density armouring to lighten the weight even further.
* Bigger Fov required for the 8x model, something 140m or over would do the trick.
* Keep pricing at the bottom of the pack, sub $1800 (or Swaro SLC HD)

Doing these upgrades would move the Minox APO around the top of the Alpha pack and make it THE quality lightweight GoTo !

Btw, as much as Ed will hate me saying this, but I really prefer the SV view to the SLC's, it just seems more crystalline ......


Chosun

Last edited by Chosun Juan : Wednesday 18th May 2016 at 04:28. Reason: N-PK 52 A glass spec links
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 05:21   #11
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Thanks Sub

However, for the low prices being discussed, nothing else on the market comes close for a light weight package, so I still think it's a great deal .....
I agree. For 1000 eur it is a bargain.

Check this video Glimmer - https://youtu.be/bGXfDIloEhQ?t=98. Can you confirm if your APO HG is new and comes with the wooden box/display case, leather case and cleaning kit mentioned in the video. I want all Alpha bins to come with a nice wooden case like the Minox.
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 07:41   #12
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I have stayed out of this because I've never been quite sure what to make of the HG Apo. I like it's relative size and weight, the FOV isn't special but OK, the CA is quite good but definitely not the best. It's effective resolution is very good and the colour, slightly cream, but typical the price. Technically a very good binocular, but one that just didn't excite me like the Vortex Razor HD at a similar price or the SLC for a bit more. However, €1000 is a much more attracive deal and definitely worth considering.

There is one other €1000 binocular I'd personally prefer, the Kite Bonelli II. Bigger, heavier, no ED glass. It may not suite everyone, but for me, a spectacular view.
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=312312

David
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 16:02   #13
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16,5 eye relief should be good, or not Chosun?

I donīt know the Vortex ones, but I thing the Minox should be better... typo, have you tried both?

I owned FL's, well, CA is much worse?
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 17:41   #14
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16,5 eye relief should be good, or not Chosun?

I donīt know the Vortex ones, but I thing the Minox should be better... typo, have you tried both?

I owned FL's, well, CA is much worse?
Glimmer, everybody's ER requirements will be slightly different due to different eyecup designs, protrusions and dimensions and how they mesh with different eye/ facial characteristics/ dimensions, symmetry, and whether they wear glasses or not (and there is even more variation there depending on script, material type/ thickness, fit to face, design of glasses, curve of lens, and whether you are short or far sighted, etc). Out of all of the folks on here I tend to fall in the middle of the pack - not needing the most ER, but not needing the least either. I don't like to have to mash my glasses hard into the eye cups to get the full Fov. I would say the 10x is marginal for me, as I have to press the bins to my glasses harder than I would like. You may very well be different and have no problem whatsoever. The best policy is to try before you buy, or make sure that you could return them for a full refund for that reason if need be. Bear in mind that at a 1000 Eur, these are a fantastic buy and around half the price of other Alphas.

The Vortex HD APO's are similar optically, again I think the 10x with its generous Fov is the pick. Itself a great lightweight, even it is about 50grams (~2ozs) heavier than the Minox, and I believe would be priced slightly higher than the deal you are getting, and of course it's only 42mm, not 43mm. I like it too, but again the ER is marginal for me, and I absolutely can not live with the Counter Clockwise to infinity focuser - damn!

I am ultra sensitive too to CA and so if that was my prime criteria I would look elsewhere - the trouble is that you then end up with really big, long binoculars well over 800grams and even up to ~965grams for the highly acclaimed Kowa Prominar XD. The Minox probably lags slightly behind the FL when it comes down to it, though it is certainly not only half as good! and I don't think it will be an issue in the field. That low 1000 Eur price can work wonders on the perceptions! :)) The CA is mostly well controlled in the centre, but I think even on the very best of the best binoculars it is still evident under challenging conditions. Again you will have to try it for yourself to see how it works with your eyes.

All in all, I still think it is an excellent buy and wouldn't over think it too much, but would put some research into the shop policies if you can't try it in person first.

Look forward to the reports!


Chosun
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 17:57   #15
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I donīt know the Vortex ones, but I thing the Minox should be better... typo, have you tried both?
Yes several times. The Razor HD 10x50 is particularly nice. Besides the Kite, the Kowa Genesis CJ mentioned, and the Maven B2 are non-alpha models that I feel offer view characteristics that are step up from the Apo HG, but these are bigger, heavier and more expensive options. That's just my preference. The Apo Hg is a fine binocular at a good price. If you've tried it and like it, then it's a great choice.

David
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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 18:22   #16
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Sorry to disturb the party, but no Minox are Made in Germany but in Japan and China. At best some are Assembled in Germany for legal reasons.

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Old Wednesday 18th May 2016, 23:32   #17
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Sorry to disturb the party, but no Minox are Made in Germany but in Japan and China. At best some are Assembled in Germany for legal reasons.

Jan
There's an inscription, "Made in germany" on them (only the Apo, not the standard Hg)

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Old Thursday 19th May 2016, 08:11   #18
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To carry a Made in Germany label, all that is required under current law is the last process in production is carried out in Germany. Simply attaching a focus wheel would probably qualify. It does not mean that any of the components need to be made in Germany.

The curious thing is that you say the HG does not have a Made in Germany Label. I think it was 4 or 5 years ago they switched the label. Do you think these binoculars are old stock?

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Old Thursday 19th May 2016, 08:14   #19
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There's an inscription, "Made in germany" on them (only the Apo, not the standard Hg)

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G,

Which (in this case) only means the equipment is Made Functional In Germany.
Personally I would prefer the logo: Assembled: Germany, country of origin: Japan. In such a case there can never be a false interpretation.
IMHO the price of the APO suggests Alpha but compared to the HD/HT/SLC/SF/SV/EDG.......nehh.
A very, very good bin? Absolutely!

Jan
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Old Thursday 19th May 2016, 14:37   #20
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To cover Davids comment: Comparing a fairly recent standard (non APO) HG with its earlier sibling, the recent one has Made in Germany on the focus ring, a serial number in the range 53001xxx and a US patent number below the serial. The early version has Apheric Lens Technology engraved instead of the Made in Germany marking, has a serial 53000xx and No US patent number. This is in addition to the different eye pieces. The older design is better from my point of view as it has smaller eyecups that help make up for the narrower field of view.
I must admit that I havn't met anyone who has owned the APO version, just trying binoculars in a shop environment never works for me.
Comparing the HG to an FL the FL wins in the optical stakes as you might hope, however, the focussing action is such that I can achieve sharp focus on the Minox faster, I am beginning to get interested in playing with an APO ......

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Old Thursday 19th May 2016, 15:20   #21
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My 8x43 HG has 'Made in Germany' printed on the focusing wheel. The serial number on the label is 3900XXXX and it has the US Patent No. below that.

I find that they are very bright but have rather a lot of CA unless the eyepieces are located perfectly in my eye sockets. The focusing is quick and accurate but I seem to spend a lot of time continually adjusting the focus (shallow DOF?) They feel well constructed and are very light. However, I use my Leica Trinovid 8x32 BN most of the time as they just feel 'right' to me.

Ron

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Old Thursday 19th May 2016, 22:16   #22
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Hi Ron,

I was comparing the 8x33 as I have that size across several of my most used bins.

I never really got on with the 8x43 HG either and much prefer the smaller model, but my daughter who wears glasses for astigmatism tried out several options and found the MIJ 8x43 set best for her, so a simple transfer to her cleared space for me and she got a free set of bins to treck round Scotland.

I don't get any CA problems with the 8x43 HG MIG, but since they are a very tight fit for my eye sockets I assume they must be pretty well self centreing, the first real advantage I have found for the heavy bone protection around my eyes!

Since they don't do the APOs in 8x33 I probably don't have an interest any more. Pity I rather fancied the nice wooden box they come with. Never mind the quality - feel the wood.

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Old Friday 20th May 2016, 07:23   #23
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Hi Ron,

I was comparing the 8x33 as I have that size across several of my most used bins.

I never really got on with the 8x43 HG either and much prefer the smaller model, but my daughter who wears glasses for astigmatism tried out several options and found the MIJ 8x43 set best for her, so a simple transfer to her cleared space for me and she got a free set of bins to treck round Scotland.

I don't get any CA problems with the 8x43 HG MIG, but since they are a very tight fit for my eye sockets I assume they must be pretty well self centreing, the first real advantage I have found for the heavy bone protection around my eyes!

Since they don't do the APOs in 8x33 I probably don't have an interest any more. Pity I rather fancied the nice wooden box they come with. Never mind the quality - feel the wood.
What do MIG and MIJ mean?

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Old Friday 20th May 2016, 07:27   #24
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What do MIG and MIJ mean?

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MIG = Made in Germany
MIJ = Made in Japan
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Old Friday 20th May 2016, 09:38   #25
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Sorry, getting lazy in my old age!
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Promaster ELX ED vs Alphas Steve C Binoculars 14 Sunday 23rd November 2008 21:48

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