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Old Monday 9th January 2017, 23:31   #51
Gilmore Girl
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Competition is a good thing, especially for the consumer. These new entities must feel there is market share to be gained or they wouldn't be attempting such a thing. It will be interesting how it all plays out.

I have never decided the merits of a binocular based purely on specs, literature, etc. It's a poor way to choose IMO. I was in love with the Swaro SV 8x32 based on specs and opinions from lots of people and places. I've never been so disappointed in my life when I actually bought one and used it. I've also been very pleasantly surprised a few times, as with the Mojave 8x32, Toric, Meostar HD, Gold Ring HD, and an 8x30 Maven. As I posted before, and it's worth repeating.....opinions are a poor substitute for actual experience. As Steve said, everyone should take a breath and relax, have some patience to see how it plays out. This isn't life threatening stuff here, it's only optics.
Of course trying a bino out to decide if it's a good fit is the best bet instead of relying purely on specs, but most people don't have the time, energy or desire to try out a ton of optics especially when you have to order and return ad nauseam. Sure, there are those people here who have the patience for it, but most normal people do not. So, Specs are very helpful to weed out a lot of bins which don't fit your personal criteria. That's what a lot of people do first and then narrow it down to a few binos and then try and find a store to try them out or order them online hoping they have a generous return policy.

Some of these new companies do not have their optics available to try in a store, so you must order and return (if it doesn't work out) which , to me , becomes tiresome quick.

I guess there is a bigger demand for binoculars than I ever imagined. Honestly though I think we are a bit over saturated with brands at this point and none who manufacture anything or offer any service/repair.
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Old Monday 9th January 2017, 23:32   #52
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...I have never decided the merits of a binocular based purely on specs, literature, etc. It's a poor way to choose IMO...
Glad you know what does and doesn't work for you. I've tried many bins in my life and I've found that specs and reviews are a good guide to how I'll react to a bin once I have in my hands, so here goes...

The specs of the top-of-line GPO 8x42 Passion HD are unimpressive all around, so given the cost I don't see why anyone would choose them over something as good or better from an established (and more likely to exist in the future) brand, like Nikon or Bushnell, or something used from Zeiss, Leica, or Swarovski.

The cheaper GPO 8x42 Passion ED has excellent specs. Its specs are as good as (identical to? Perhaps both are made in the same Chinese plant) the Bushnell 8x42 Legend Ultra HD, which is a stupendous binocular provided you don't get a (all too common) lemon unit. That recently discontinued Bushnell model and its replacement (the L-series) goes for ~$200 which is far below the nearest (perhaps not even as good) spec-competitive models from other brands like Nikon, whose 8x42 Monarch 7 is $480. The GPO 8x42 Passion lists at $380 and since I assume GPO will check units to avoid selling lemons, might be an attractive "mid-priced" option for folks who aren't willing to take the trouble to do their own quality check when buying the Bushnell at almost half the price. Only downside beside price that I can think of is that GPO may not exist in a few years (and therefore may not be able to honor its warranty), whereas Bushnell almost certainly will be with us to the end of time, and Bushnell has a good track record of repairing or replacing faulty binos.

--AP

Last edited by Alexis Powell : Monday 9th January 2017 at 23:42.
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Old Monday 9th January 2017, 23:35   #53
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Slow down people. It seems Dennis ranting has everyone so mad that there is immediate negative vibes for a new binocular nobody has even seen yet. Dennis is succeeding in getting under everybody's skin. It is screwing up a thread he has not even had much chance to screw up...yet.

Looks kind of like a Leica focus knob. Sort of Trinovid like specs.

Anybody ever notice all these new outfits seem to have been undertaken by people with previous work experience in the optics world?
I don't think I am getting under anybodies skin with a little light humor. Maybe yours. Sometimes I think you take my humor as ranting when it is not intended that way. That is your opinion that I am screwing up the thread. You need to mellow out a bit and don't take this stuff so serious." Slow down people." REALLY! Let us have some fun, teacher.
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Old Monday 9th January 2017, 23:40   #54
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I have looked at the site, and they do stress the made in Germany
part. They may be having one of the German mfrs. help with the
manufacturing. Maybe Leica is doing some work for GPO.
Jerry
Hi,

I didn't find any allegations of made in germany on the site:

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=made+...te:gpo-usa.com

Also Leica has been manufacturing in Portugal for many years - the binoculars are no exception...

The only current made in germany bins are the Zeiss alphas from Wetzlar - Swaro is probably also still manufacturing domestically but that's austria and everybody else has either outsourced and are frank about it like Leica or has outsourced and is doing the company sticker put on = made in trick like Minox and Steiner.

Joachim

Last edited by jring : Monday 9th January 2017 at 23:59. Reason: added current
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Old Monday 9th January 2017, 23:43   #55
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Dennis is on my ignore list, so why is this guy trying to ruin another thread.

Get lost, go play with yourself.

Jerry
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 00:07   #56
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I've tried many bins in my life and I've found that specs and reviews are a good guide to how I'll react to a bin once I have in my hands, so here goes...


--AP
yep and that's how almost everyone does it: Specs are used to rule out binoculars that you think most likely won't work and they are used to pick out ones that look like they could work well for you. So, you get your hands on the ones which have the listed Specs which meet your requirements and then try those out to see if they are a good fit or not.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 00:51   #57
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yep and that's how almost everyone does it: Specs are used to rule out binoculars that you think most likely won't work and they are used to pick out ones that look like they could work well for you. So, you get your hands on the ones which have the listed Specs which meet your requirements and then try those out to see if they are a good fit or not.
In all my binocular purchases I usually use specifications as a guideline but many times I have purchased a binocular based on specifications and not liked it. A lot of these have been Chinese made because the specifications on paper look really good but when I got them I found I had a lot of quality issues and often times the build quality was lacking in some area. Either the focus came loose or the diopter was funky or there was a lot of slop in the eyecups. Maybe others have had better luck with Chinese binoculars but mine has been very spotty. I have had better luck with Japanese made binoculars. I wouldn't be afraid to try these new binoculars even though the specifications are not that great because sometimes they will fool you.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 00:57   #58
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Dennis is on my ignore list, so why is this guy trying to ruin another thread.

Get lost, go play with yourself.

Jerry
Hi ND. How do you figure I am ruining the thread? At least I am contributing to it. Your the Troll because you troll around following me around calling me a Troll. Chill out Bro! By the way I don't play with myself.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 00:58   #59
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<...>
I am not sure why a 91% total transmission does not seem likely. There are other binoculars out there that have a similar spec or more. Also the 99.7% figure is shown as "99.7% ags". That looks quite explicit and not misleading.

Example-Classic design SP prism of 93%
http://www.allbinos.com/303-binocula...10x42_W_B.html
Not going to speculate about the quality of an unreleased bin, but I do wonder ... 99.7% transmission at each surface, 91% total. Is that either typical or reasonable? If those numbers are correct that means a total of 31 surfaces. Assuming a completely air-spaced triplet objective and an eyepiece as complex as an XW or Ethos (neither of which are likely) accounts for 18 of those surfaces. The Schmidt-Pechan roof prism has 4 air-glass interfaces plus one internal reflection at less than the critical angle. The roof part of the prism will also need phase coating (2 surfaces). What am I missing here?

BTW, 93% total transmission from 99.6% surface transmission is 18 surfaces, which does not seem unreasonable.

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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 01:02   #60
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Since Dennis is trying to dominate another thread, I think a good nickname for
him is "Peewee Herman", a troll that liked kids.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 01:21   #61
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Dennis AND others, understand this, so far I have had three complaints 1 by mail and two PMs , 1 more and Im going to fly over to the US and start kicking some butts every time a thread starts the usual suspect/suspects start getting over excited and start insulting each other, its worse than a play school.

So play nicely please or no more Mr nice guy.

thankyou

Steve

Denver looks like my first stop, will I need my speedos
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 02:18   #62
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Glad you know what does and doesn't work for you. I've tried many bins in my life and I've found that specs and reviews are a good guide to how I'll react to a bin once I have in my hands, so here goes...


--AP
That works great, until the specs are wrong, such as with the FOV of the new Noctovid.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 02:44   #63
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That works great, until the specs are wrong, such as with the FOV of the new Noctovid.
If ER of a bin is listed at 14mm in the specs I'm not going to order it hoping the spec for ER is a typo. I'll look for something else with more ER b/c I wear glasses. If it was possible to try the same bin out in person at a local store that's different (and convenient), but for a lot of us who need to order online the specs are super helpful in picking out a suitable bin to try out.
I'm sure in your camp you get to try a lot of bins that come through there which must be nice.

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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 03:10   #64
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Understood Gilmore Girl. I'm not saying a guy/lady should disregard specs, but they can be misleading and often are. FWIW I'm not the least bit interested in this new GPO stuff either, but I bet we haven't seen the last of this business model in optics.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 03:17   #65
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Understood Gilmore Girl. I'm not saying a guy/lady should disregard specs, but they can be misleading and often are. FWIW I'm not the least bit interested in this new GPO stuff either, but I bet we haven't seen the last of this business model in optics.
JG:

You are the big promoter of Tract on the site. These new GPO
optics seem to be a bit higher priced, and I suspect they must be
made at a higher quality level.

I wonder how we can determine that ?

Jerry
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 03:33   #66
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Not real sure Jerry. I have seen the wonderful Maven lineup though, and they are quite a bit higher that Tract too, but I saw little difference in build quality. I have no clue what the internals of any of them consist of. That's not a slam against Maven though.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 04:55   #67
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Not real sure Jerry. I have seen the wonderful Maven lineup though, and they are quite a bit higher that Tract too, but I saw little difference in build quality. I have no clue what the internals of any of them consist of. That's not a slam against Maven though.
I agree with you about the Tract and Maven's build quality. They look pretty close to me both being very high quality. These new binoculars I would bet would be similar to a Tract or Maven at the price point they are at. The fact that they are using AK and SP prisms and have some different magnifications kind of sounds like Maven.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 06:02   #68
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Anybody ever notice all these new outfits seem to have been undertaken by people with previous work experience in the optics world?
That's an interesting observation, Steve. With Maven, it's understandable. Brunton decided to get out of the binocular business, so they fired everybody. And a couple of them started Maven. But what's going on with Nikon and Zeiss, that they're shedding high level management? Or did these folks quit?

Often when people leave large companies, the most useful bits of information they leave with are their former companies' weaknesses. To me it's interesting that all of these newcomers have decided to focus on the mid-price and up category. Maybe they all feel like the established companies aren't focused enough on this category?
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 07:02   #69
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It seems to me that Leica and Swarovski never focused on mid-priced binoculars, at least from the 1990s. Zeiss has had their 2nd line Conquests for quite a while and has moved down into a third line; and Nikon has had a full price range of binoculars during that time with numerous changes occurring in it except in its top of the range.

Bob
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 07:33   #70
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Not going to speculate about the quality of an unreleased bin, but I do wonder ... 99.7% transmission at each surface, 91% total. Is that either typical or reasonable? If those numbers are correct that means a total of 31 surfaces. Assuming a completely air-spaced triplet objective and an eyepiece as complex as an XW or Ethos (neither of which are likely) accounts for 18 of those surfaces. The Schmidt-Pechan roof prism has 4 air-glass interfaces plus one internal reflection at less than the critical angle. The roof part of the prism will also need phase coating (2 surfaces). What am I missing here?

BTW, 93% total transmission from 99.6% surface transmission is 18 surfaces, which does not seem unreasonable.
Hi,

as I tried to point out, you cannot just divide the total light loss by the light loss per surface to find out the number of surfaces in a Schmidt-Pechan design due to the following reasons:

- you loose a lot of light on the mirrored surface. Even with a dielectric mirror it's the equivalent of multiple surfaces over the visual range - much more for silver or aluminum. Unfortunately the gpo-usa.com page doesn't state what kind of mirroring is used - same for phase coating btw.

- the prism surfaces adjacent to the air space must not be multicoated for best results as they are used for reflection and transmission - the least evil here is to single-coat those, which gives 1% light loss for each of these.

Joachim

Last edited by jring : Tuesday 10th January 2017 at 07:36. Reason: added clause in a Schmidt Pechan design
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 09:06   #71
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Anybody ever notice all these new outfits seem to have been undertaken by people with previous work experience in the optics world?
Yes, that's interesting. In this case it appears to be former management and sales people of Zeiss. I'd certainly expect them to have a realistic idea of the market they are targeting.

However, I find it a little curious that a guy who yesterday still was CEO of Zeiss sport optics today associates himself with a small company, who's website is full of obvious stabs at Zeiss' business model. Emphasising the Germany connection and their Zeiss past, thus attempting to take advantage of the Zeiss quality image just adds to that.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 09:43   #72
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Competition is a good thing, especially for the consumer. These new entities must feel there is market share to be gained or they wouldn't be attempting such a thing. It will be interesting how it all plays out.

I have never decided the merits of a binocular based purely on specs, literature, etc. It's a poor way to choose IMO. I was in love with the Swaro SV 8x32 based on specs and opinions from lots of people and places. I've never been so disappointed in my life when I actually bought one and used it. I've also been very pleasantly surprised a few times, as with the Mojave 8x32, Toric, Meostar HD, Gold Ring HD, and an 8x30 Maven. As I posted before, and it's worth repeating.....opinions are a poor substitute for actual experience. As Steve said, everyone should take a breath and relax, have some patience to see how it plays out. This isn't life threatening stuff here, it's only optics.
Dead right JG.
Specs don't tell half of the story even if they are a guide. Take light weight. I'm all for that too but at some point light weight can mean reduced durability and you can't see this from just looking at the bins. And take ER folks on here have found 15mm more than adequate and some had problems with 18mm, its due to eyecup design and face and spectacles and you can't factor that into specifications. And all the opinions from trusted friends and BF posters in the world can't really tell you how you are going to feel when you wrap your hands around a pair of bins and lift them to your eyes.

Lee

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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 09:53   #73
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Yes, that's interesting. In this case it appears to be former management and sales people of Zeiss. I'd certainly expect them to have a realistic idea of the market they are targeting.

However, I find it a little curious that a guy who yesterday still was CEO of Zeiss sport optics today associates himself with a small company, who's website is full of obvious stabs at Zeiss' business model. Emphasising the Germany connection and their Zeiss past, thus attempting to take advantage of the Zeiss quality image just adds to that.
Dalat

Jensen left Zeiss more than a year ago and Schmidt left about a year before that.

Lee
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 10:14   #74
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Ah, ok. I had a look at his linkedin profile and he still figures as Zeiss employee there, that's why I assumed his departure was recently only.
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Old Tuesday 10th January 2017, 11:53   #75
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Ah, ok. I had a look at his linkedin profile and he still figures as Zeiss employee there, that's why I assumed his departure was recently only.
No problem Dalat and it is legitimate to be interested in the back-story of folks starting businesses like this.

I haven't met Herr Schmidt but have met Mike and, as Jerry rightly pointed out, he was well known on Bird Forum for straight talking and giving fair answers to fair questions.

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