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Old Thursday 26th May 2005, 23:45   #1
StevieEvans
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Question Lesser White Fronted Goose.....

Whats the likelyhood of the occurance of a wild LWFGoose in Uk at present....?

How many other May records are there for Uk ?

Any comments welcome.

SE.
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Old Thursday 26th May 2005, 23:51   #2
Edward woodwood
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Hi Stevie

there aren't any records i know of from April even

after March that's it until November

at least for gen accepted BBRC records

Tim
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Old Friday 27th May 2005, 06:33   #3
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....so get the rubber out, Stevie! LOL!
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Old Friday 27th May 2005, 06:47   #4
John Cantelo
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It's always possible that a 'pricked' bird could stay on into spring/summer - Whooper Swan at Dungeness recently stayed well past it's normal leaving date for example. However, given the numbers of free flying 'alien' waterfowl about these days this is by far the ore likely origin (and note that 'free flying'!), John
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Old Friday 27th May 2005, 11:47   #5
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lesser whitefront

there is a lesser present in lancashire it sometimes frequents the marine at southport and also during the winter is seen with greylag at martin mere. a wild one did turn up for a few years in the late seventies and was with the pinks on the mosses. this goose is now one of the rarest around and most sightings probably dont involve wild birds. i had to go to hungary for mine
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Old Friday 27th May 2005, 22:08   #6
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Tar for prompt reply Tim.



Quote:
....so get the rubber out, Stevie! LOL!
Bonjour Inspector
A rubber aint no use when you use a git big black biro
When i tick it lasts.
Anyway real birders dont use rubbers....erasers maybe......lol

Yeah, it would have felt a lot better had it arrive in jan / feb.

just my luck to see this, but missed todays Rosefinch & wednesdays Monty's...

SE
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Old Friday 27th May 2005, 22:49   #7
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Real birders don't use rubbers!
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 12:59   #8
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Was sent this info from the Birdguides service , latest confirmed reports in recent years in bold.

England
2003 Gloucestershire Slimbridge, first-winter, 16th to 28th February, photo. British Birds 97: 561
1998 Gloucestershire Slimbridge, adult, 4th to 27th February, photo. British Birds 92: 561, plate 230
1997 Norfolk Holkham, adult, 12th to 22nd January, photo. British Birds 91: 463
1996 Yorkshire, East Puffin Bog, Brandesburton and Tophill Low area, adult, 28th January to 12th April, photo. British Birds 90: 461
1996 Gloucestershire Slimbridge, adult, 5th January to 22nd March. British Birds 90: 461
1995 Gloucestershire Slimbridge, adult, 26th January to 26th February, photo. British Birds 89: 490
1995 Norfolk Cantley, first-winter, 15th to 29th January. British Birds 89: 490
1995 Norfolk Holkham, adult, 13th January to 25th April, photo. British Birds 89: 490

S.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 15:35   #9
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Stevie,

A confirmed report doesn't make it a wild bird. Further to Carol there have been several in Cumbrian and Lancashire in recent years, several of which escaped from a South Cumbrian collection when the owner died.

If it isn't with a Whitefront flock don't even think about it. I think too much mileage has been obtained out of birds with Pinkfeet flocks, I've seen Bar-headed Geese in Pinkfoot flocks!

Stephen.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 15:50   #10
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Hi Stephen
Personally, I wouldnt give a BirdGuides report much credibility, but i was under the assumption that the ones published in the "BB" magazine were ones which had been vetted....?

SE.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 15:56   #11
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Yes, but the BBRC are giving wildfowl the benefit of the doubt these days. If it is submitted and can't be proved to be an escape on any reasonable criteria (rings, wing damage, tameness) it gets accepted. So Lesser Whitefronts with Pinkfeet get accepted, some may be wild but some almost certainly are not.

It is your list so obviously you decide. I've seen a load of Lesser Whitefronts including a Swedish reintroduction bird and the species isn't on my list. The first winter at Slimbridge a couple of years ago, I would have counted that one.

Stephen.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 16:07   #12
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Quote:
It is your list so obviously you decide
How many times have we heard that one now....
I know full well who's list it is, thats why i'm trying to get as full a picture as possible & obtain as much info ... before i get my big black pen out !
Thanks for imput Stephen.

At the moment though, its all pretty much water under the bridge, as a Pallid Harrier has gone through Boldon today too.....

Just out of curiousity, which ones the most unusual LWFGoose or PHarrier ?

SE.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 20:57   #13
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Stephen, If that is the case do youn think the BBRC might consider the Bowling Green Marsh Trumpeter Swans if someone has made a submission?
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 21:12   #14
Stephen Dunstan
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Hi Andrew,

No, I don't because as a new addition to the British List they would have to go through the BOURC. The procedure for a 'first' for Britain has always been more stringent anyway, there have been instances where records would been fine with the BBRC but didn't get through as 'firsts' for Britain.

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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 21:23   #15
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Cheers for pointing that out.
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Old Saturday 28th May 2005, 22:34   #16
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Not nearly as exciting , but a couple of hundred Greylag which visit my local patch each winter (with occasional odd WF) are long gone with the exception of a pair who for some reason stayed this year. Anyway - today i stopped by and there was an extra dozen at least! Im not positive - but i reckon they are wild. They seem to be everywhere i go in central Scotland now. Half dozen pairs of Goldeneye locally too, which normally only winter here.
Also saw a lone Whooper a couple of weeks back at RSPB at Kirriemuir.
Do you see where im going here?
Are any of these `unusual` as seems for my patch or is the trend repeated throughgout the country?

** Sorry - this wasn`t a hijack attempt
I can only guess the odd bird or two is just a little more relaxed when it comes to migration/breeding habitat?

Last edited by Stuart Watson : Thursday 2nd June 2005 at 20:07. Reason: Apologies
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Old Sunday 29th May 2005, 00:51   #17
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further LWFG info

From :- RARE BIRDS DAY BY DAY PUBLISHED BY T AND AD POYSER
.....dates for L.W.F. Goose -fairburn ings 15.5.76 to 18.5.76. essex 22.6.78 to 14.8.78 and derbyshire 8.6.78

LGRE advises that at least 6 feral LWFGeese have been recorded this year.

Also, of interest, a late Bean Goose still in lothian today.

SE.
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Old Monday 30th May 2005, 00:09   #18
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Interested to read this thread. Presumably original post relates to the bird present at Boldon, Co. Durham from 26/5 until at least 17:00hrs 28/5 (yesterday), with Greylags?

Anyway, I had a Lesser Whitefront come in to Musselburgh lagoons this afternoon at 16:40hrs, high from the S with 12 nominate Greylags. Once they landed they set about drinking and preening as if they had come down from a long flight. It was a beautiful bird, in pristine condition, unringed and very wary. The flock subsequently moved to the sea, where they continued to look twitchy, and the Lesser Whitefront flew up and circled at 19:15hrs. The Greylag then got up and joined it, initially N, then high W over the city of Edinbugh until lost from view.

Have had a look at various Scandinanvian reintroduction programmes on web, e.g. http://www.rettetdiezwerggans.de/en/index2en.html and it looks like many of these birds would be ringed. So I guess it is most likely just an escape from a private collection.

>> Also, of interest, a late Bean Goose still in lothian today.

Where did you see this? It has not been mentioned on LothianBirdNews yahoo or on Birdguides as far as I can see. Would be a great record!

Stephen Welch
Longniddry, Lothian
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Old Monday 30th May 2005, 00:28   #19
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Cheers for extra info Stevie

I think those summer LWG and Bean Goose recs must refer to feral/escape birds
Bean Goose certainy occur as Feral/escapes

and that Derbys LWG is surely an escape!!!

Tim
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Old Monday 30th May 2005, 00:37   #20
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Quote:
Where did you see this? It has not been mentioned on LothianBirdNews yahoo or on Birdguides as far as I can see. Would be a great record!

Stephen Welch
Longniddry, Lothian
Hi Stephen
That info was on a mates pager, I shall double check with him tomorrow...

(Hopefully it'll be next recorded in Fife, then flying North East past an oil rig....!! )

Howdy Tim
I havnt quite let this one go yet.........
But its amazing what a good resource BF / Emails & internet can be in collecting information.

SE.
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Old Thursday 2nd June 2005, 19:32   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StevieEvans
I havnt quite let this one go yet.........
But its amazing what a good resource BF / Emails & internet can be in collecting information.
Yes, it is nice to be able to discuss particular individuals as they move around the country.

Just to confirm, having now seen the Mark Newsome's pic in today's Birdguides weekly review, this bird is exactly what we thought - i.e. the same individual - shield margin feather pattern and belly patches match pics of the Musselburgh bird perfectly.

I also agree we should not let it go as a possible wild bird. On the basis of its obvious twitchy and nervous behaviour it seemed a very poor contender for an escape. But my main concern was how late it was - I would not describe it as a "summer record" but according to the Operation Lesser Whitefront site I mentioned birds return to their breeding areas - right in the north of Sweden - "by the end of May". BWP says return passage begins in February and arrival in summer quarters is "mainly in May". This is similar to what BWP says for Pinkfoot, which are mainly long gone here, so it looks a bit marginal in that respect. Can anyone else comment on how late this really is (i.e. 29 May in SE Scotland)?

The other uncertainty is how many of the Scandinavian birds are ringed. The picture on the Operation Lesser Whitefront site seems to show single red right-leg colour rings. The CR-Birding website (Lesser Whitefront page) confirms there are Swedish, Norwegian and Finnish leg-ringing projects but does not give many numbers ringed for this species, nor does any seem to match the single red ring! I wonder if anyone can comment on this either?

Regards

Stephen

Last edited by WelchS : Thursday 2nd June 2005 at 19:35.
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Old Thursday 2nd June 2005, 20:09   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WelchS
I mentioned birds return to their breeding areas - right in the north of Sweden - "by the end of May". This is similar to what BWP says for Pinkfoot, which are mainly long gone here, so it looks a bit marginal in that respect. Can anyone else comment on how late this really is (i.e. 29 May in SE Scotland)?
Pinkfoots and Lesser White-fronts go in different directions, so what might delay one may not affect the other. Geese are moving late this year - as with many migrants, a cool spring has slowed things down on the northern front. As of a week ago, there were still hundreds of geese on the Baltic coast and as far as latitudes go, we ain't no further north than Lothian.
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Old Thursday 2nd June 2005, 20:09   #23
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Stephen,

June is clearly seriously late for any wild goose in England. There are several known escapes in the country, escapes often get into flocks of other species. Behaviour proves nothing, wild birds can behave like escapes and vice-versa. I think it is an escape.

If you are however looking for some evidence to support your cause then a reintroduction bird in the early 1990s ended up touring north west sites all the following summer. But that was a young reintroduction bird, not a wild adult.

Regards,

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Old Thursday 2nd June 2005, 20:12   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Dunstan
But that was a young reintroduction bird, not a wild adult.
Increasingly, there are going to be unrung reintroduction birds, so if you consider them not untickable, then I would be thinking there will never be another tickable Lesser White-fronted Goose in the UK ...or anywhere else for that matter
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Old Thursday 2nd June 2005, 20:38   #25
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The point I was making Jos is that a young reintroduction bird would be more likely to overshoot and then get disorientated.

I personally have no problem with species being 'untickable'. I couldn't tick White Stork in Lancashire because the escape risk is overwhelming, but I know the odd wild bird could reach us.
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