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Old Sunday 27th August 2017, 12:30   #26
Chosun Juan
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Nikon says .......

Interesting further information from some of the Nikon management involved in the development:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...ikon-d850A.HTM

* 1 full stop extra ISO performance
* BSI sensor used as much for speed as IQ
* ~ 7 seconds to clear the buffer
* Focus shift function has a minimum ? gradation of 1/30th the focal length of the lens used (can this be correct?) - so for a 600mm lens that would be 20mm - useful ?


Also ...... anyone (with a more decent monitor than mine) care to comment on the WBSE image (#5) from the official Nikon pictures I posted in the link above ??
Even though the tonal gradation is smooth, I was expecting more DR ? ..... I can't see too much detail in the black (underwing), or the white prior to blowing (on the back of the neck).
Some have also complained of the images sharpness? , though it looks okay ? on my displays .....



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Old Sunday 27th August 2017, 14:50   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
Interesting further information from some of the Nikon management involved in the development:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...ikon-d850A.HTM

* 1 full stop extra ISO performance
* BSI sensor used as much for speed as IQ
* ~ 7 seconds to clear the buffer
* Focus shift function has a minimum ? gradation of 1/30th the focal length of the lens used (can this be correct?) - so for a 600mm lens that would be 20mm - useful ?


Also ...... anyone (with a more decent monitor than mine) care to comment on the WBSE image (#5) from the official Nikon pictures I posted in the link above ??
Even though the tonal gradation is smooth, I was expecting more DR ? ..... I can't see too much detail in the black (underwing), or the white prior to blowing (on the back of the neck).
Some have also complained of the images sharpness? , though it looks okay ? on my displays .....



Chosun
WBSE is shot with 1.4x TC (700mm) at ISO 400, and the speed of the eagle was ??? mph, DR is probably 2 stops less at ISO400 than at 100, so don't expect Hasselblad quality. And it's a JPG, there should be more headroom and details in the RAW.

#1 photo, the landscape shot at ISO100, looks pretty noisy though. Dim light, longer shutter speeds, will generate more noise of course, per pixel noise does not seem to be super low in dim lighting, but we'll see more on that soon.

My interest for the D850 is actually increasing, it seems like a much more flexible and better camera than the D800/E/D810, overall usability, controls, grip etc. D850 will do pretty much anything a pro-camera is supposed to do, and as such the price is starting to seem pretty "reasonable".

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/15...o-a-nikon-d850

Last edited by Vespobuteo : Sunday 27th August 2017 at 19:55.
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 10:25   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
WBSE is shot with 1.4x TC (700mm) at ISO 400, and the speed of the eagle was ??? mph, DR is probably 2 stops less at ISO400 than at 100, so don't expect Hasselblad quality. And it's a JPG, there should be more headroom and details in the RAW.

#1 photo, the landscape shot at ISO100, looks pretty noisy though. Dim light, longer shutter speeds, will generate more noise of course, per pixel noise does not seem to be super low in dim lighting, but we'll see more on that soon.

My interest for the D850 is actually increasing, it seems like a much more flexible and better camera than the D800/E/D810, overall usability, controls, grip etc. D850 will do pretty much anything a pro-camera is supposed to do, and as such the price is starting to seem pretty "reasonable".

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/15...o-a-nikon-d850
If I understand correctly, the hi-res photos Nikon posted are RAW converted to Jpegs using the bundled software. Seeing that the 500mm f4 + 1.4xTC is a pretty sharp setup (and quite typical of what will be used in practice, if not even conservative - I know a few who use 1.7 or 2xTC's with 5 and 600 f4's) , I think I still would have expected more detail in the WBSE, particularly in the white on top of the head and back of the neck, given where the histogram sits, and given the exif data of a low ISO 400, aperture stopped down some to f6.7, and 1/3000th of a second shutter speed. ??

I have been digging around a bit, and some early DR/ ISO/ SNR data (or constructions thereof) seems to 'clarify' some of the Nikon execs remarks.

As I suspected , the full stop improvement in ISO performance applies ONLY to the extended top end. ie.the performance of the new D850 at ISO 25600 is the same as the old D810 at ISO 12800.

The performance at the lowest end of the ISO range is the same despite the hike in resolution, and there are gains of ~ 1/3 to 1/2 stop in the mid range. So rather than lobbing somewhere in the range between the D750 and challenging the D5 in the midrange, as I had hoped, it looks like it might approach (or match) the D750 midrange performance. Time with production models and standardized testing will tell, but it looks like an improvement on the D810

Some more emerging data here on this thread by Bill Claff of (www.PhotonsToPhotos.net) over on DPReview: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60035567

Despite all the p**-p**ing on the interwebs by the Mirrorless /Video crowd, I think it is quite an exciting 'all-in-one' photography camera, and I look forward to getting my hands on one. I suppose whether it stays there depends on how well it actually tests, how I find the feel in the hand, how much of a 2500+ ISO improvement it shows over the D500, and how well the DX performance stacks up (mid range ISO performance, AF coverage and performance, and viewfinder experience), and if the focus stacking feature works in long range photography for me ..... and of course I'm going to have to dig up some sort of a deal - coz I ain't payin' retail in Oz !

I think I will still be 90% birds, but the better grip and balance of the heavier D850 (over a D7200) should work well with big Super telephotos and the prospect of it also being a top notch landscape tool too, is pretty tantalizing!



Chosun

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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 10:53   #29
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My exact thoughts on multi usage . I had thought that the fuji would do it but when I started getting black lines around a couple of the birds , i started looking and someone came up with the statement that this could be normal with the big lens.Enough for me !
Back into the fold and waiting .
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 14:51   #30
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My exact thoughts on multi usage . I had thought that the fuji would do it but when I started getting black lines around a couple of the birds , i started looking and someone came up with the statement that this could be normal with the big lens.Enough for me !
Back into the fold and waiting .
Could you explain that a bit more?
Any examples or links to check out?
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 15:06   #31
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Originally Posted by Chosun Juan View Post
If I understand correctly, the hi-res photos Nikon posted are RAW converted to Jpegs using the bundled software. Seeing that the 500mm f4 + 1.4xTC is a pretty sharp setup (and quite typical of what will be used in practice, if not even conservative - I know a few who use 1.7 or 2xTC's with 5 and 600 f4's) , I think I still would have expected more detail in the WBSE, particularly in the white on top of the head and back of the neck, given where the histogram sits, and given the exif data of a low ISO 400, aperture stopped down some to f6.7, and 1/3000th of a second shutter speed. ??

I have been digging around a bit, and some early DR/ ISO/ SNR data (or constructions thereof) seems to 'clarify' some of the Nikon execs remarks.

As I suspected , the full stop improvement in ISO performance applies ONLY to the extended top end. ie.the performance of the new D850 at ISO 25600 is the same as the old D810 at ISO 12800.

The performance at the lowest end of the ISO range is the same despite the hike in resolution, and there are gains of ~ 1/3 to 1/2 stop in the mid range. So rather than lobbing somewhere in the range between the D750 and challenging the D5 in the midrange, as I had hoped, it looks like it might approach (or match) the D750 midrange performance. Time with production models and standardized testing will tell, but it looks like an improvement on the D810

Some more emerging data here on this thread by Bill Claff of (www.PhotonsToPhotos.net) over on DPReview: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60035567

Despite all the p**-p**ing on the interwebs by the Mirrorless /Video crowd, I think it is quite an exciting 'all-in-one' photography camera, and I look forward to getting my hands on one. I suppose whether it stays there depends on how well it actually tests, how I find the feel in the hand, how much of a 2500+ ISO improvement it shows over the D500, and how well the DX performance stacks up (mid range ISO performance, AF coverage and performance, and viewfinder experience), and if the focus stacking feature works in long range photography for me ..... and of course I'm going to have to dig up some sort of a deal - coz I ain't payin' retail in Oz !

I think I will still be 90% birds, but the better grip and balance of the heavier D850 (over a D7200) should work well with big Super telephotos and the prospect of it also being a top notch landscape tool too, is pretty tantalizing!

Chosun
I think it's pretty clear that you don't see all the beautiful 46MP:s in the WBSE shot. Photo probably would have looked as "sharp" with a D750 or even a D5. TC and distance/air will limit the possible resolution. But you can always scale the photo to smaller size to make it look tack sharp.

I have seen www.PhotonsToPhotos.net, but don't expect the same results there as on Dxolabs or DPreview. According to PTP the olympus em-1 II would have better DR than D500 (at higher ISO, see Measurements). DXO shows the opposite, and that is more like what I see in the test photos on DPR.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp..._1136_1061_975

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...M1%20Mark%20II

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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 16:35   #32
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Originally Posted by Vespobuteo View Post
I think it's pretty clear that you don't see all the beautiful 46MP:s in the WBSE shot. Photo probably would have looked as "sharp" with a D750 or even a D5. TC and distance/air will limit the possible resolution. But you can always scale the photo to smaller size to make it look tack sharp.

I have seen www.PhotonsToPhotos.net, but don't expect the same results there as on Dxolabs or DPreview. According to PTP the olympus em-1 II would have better DR than D500 (at higher ISO, see Measurements). DXO shows the opposite, and that is more like what I see in the test photos on DPR.

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Comp..._1136_1061_975

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...M1%20Mark%20II
Vespo,

I agree, those are some strange results from PTP re the Oly. I would expect it to go D750 > D500 》Oly EM-1 II for ISO performance. I mainly posted it because Bill has been the first I've seen to attempt to quantify the D850's SNR and ISO performance (albeit 'constructed' and 'reverse engineered' as opposed to tested). At least within that site, and in relation to the D810, it's a more or less apples to apples comparison (or crunchy sweet round red fruit that keeps Doctors away anyway! :)

To get the D750's ISO performance (or more) at near double the resolution, and nearly 50% more speed is quite the achievement I think

As for the WBSE, I really don't know what's specifically going on - crunching the numbers between flight speed, panning, and shutter speed, the maximum distance the bird could have moved (relatively) is ~0.5 - ~1cm. Worst case that might result in some of the softness, but parts like the beak are as sharp as you could expect. It's more a matter of the lack of detail in the areas I mentioned ...... that could be due to atmospheric conditions as you say, perhaps in combination with the angle and quality of the light, which looks reasonably oblique, low, and soft - almost back lighting large portions of the near-side rear of the bird.

I'm sure other shots down the track will be much better at showing the capability - I really can't see what all the fuss is about over on DP where both Nikon's and the Pro's shots are for the majority bagged?? They've obviously (well to me anyway) been selected with great care as far as colour, lighting, and composition goes, to show off the camera's ability to handle high contrast situations and/or low lighting, and speed. The results seem pretty good. Some noise here and there, and maybe soft focus on the water skier (but he ain't exactly hangin' around to generate a rooster tail like that! :) , and FWIW, I think the last of the Pro's sample shots of the athlete holding the ball is deliberately focused on the ball to demonstrate off-centre ability, and for nice artistic taste.

Technique and lens quality obviously play large parts, but really, if the 28MP Samsung NX-1 (APS-C sized, also BSI CMOS sensor) that everyone raved about 3 years ago, was scaled to FF size, it would be 63MP !!! So 45.7MP is no dramas at all - I hope we get to see some properly controlled, technically shot and processed 'actual production unit' images soon .....

I'm still very keen to give the D850 a go, but I've got a good 6months to a year to wait, and watch, and trial, - so no hurry :)
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 17:02   #33
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This was thread on dpr. I kept trying but then succumbed to the lure of 0.75x optical.
www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4193099
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 17:18   #34
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Vespobuteo
This was thread on dpr. I kept trying but then succumbed to the lure of 0.75x optical.
www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4193099
Les,

I just had a quick look and you're right - bizzarro !!

A guess would be something to do with some sneaky CA processing that's automatically going on behind your back (or maybe even under your nose! :) without your permission or knowledge, and then leaving some weird artifacts ..... I'm not that familiar with how that system processes - so just guesses ....

Take one D850, and 2 batteries, and call in the morning if it's no better! :)



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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 18:44   #35
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What was annoying was the fact that a lot of shots were great . look at the fuji thread I started.
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Old Monday 28th August 2017, 19:55   #36
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Vespobuteo
This was thread on dpr. I kept trying but then succumbed to the lure of 0.75x optical.
www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4193099
Interesting, I actually have suspected that Fuji is "baking" the RAW files, at least when it comes to de-noise, so perhaps they do CA-correction in RAW also.
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Old Tuesday 29th August 2017, 02:36   #37
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This is the camera years ago I imagined would eventually appear. i.e., a D800 with pixel density roughly equivalent to the best DX bodies, but with all the horsepower to process the enormous full size files almost as fast. If your primary pursuit is birds/wildlife, the cheaper lighter D500 makes a lot more sense. But if you can get past the increased size and weight, as a "do it all powerhouse," the D850 is mighty compelling. One of the guys I follow, Brad Hill, emphasizes the similarity in pixel size between the D500 and the D850, and I do think that is a key consideration. In his recent long post, he says, "given that the D850 and the D500 have very similar pixel pitch, there really should be no significant difference in how these two cameras 'beat up' lenses (at least in the central region) OR punish poor image capture techniques." And the BSI sensor may improve the image quality of those D850 pixels vs. the D500 (how much we can only guess for now). The only downside is the increased weight and the bird is smaller in the viewfinder (but this might be an advantage when trying to track with BIF). Oh, and of course you have to cough up ~$3300...

Dave

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Old Wednesday 30th August 2017, 11:21   #38
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More test shots from D850 incl. RAW files:

http://www.photographyblog.com/previ...on_d850_photos
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Old Friday 1st September 2017, 15:32   #39
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Some more test shots - up to ISO 25600 .....
https://petapixel.com/2017/08/29/fir...hot-iso-25600/



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Old Friday 1st September 2017, 15:55   #40
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I made this collage for comparison from test shots here: http://foto-info.si/nikon-d850-iso-t...l-second-part/

Whaddyareckon folks ??



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Old Friday 1st September 2017, 16:34   #41
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I'd agree about less colour noise, the rest of it I'm not so sure about ..... I think the D850 will require slightly different exposure and processing to suit - production models may be further tweaked anyway ........

https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/28/f...d-online.aspx/
https://translate.googleusercontent....juATb0u-3y-DmQ



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Old Friday 1st September 2017, 19:25   #42
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Attachment 638158

I made this collage for comparison from test shots here: http://foto-info.si/nikon-d850-iso-t...l-second-part/

Whaddyareckon folks ??

Chosun
Clearly more detail in the D850 photos, but that's expected with more 33% pixels. If there is a visible difference at normal print sizes we'll see. But I suspect you have to print pretty large to see it.
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Old Monday 11th September 2017, 20:28   #43
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Brad Hill was lucky to get one of the few first production D850's, and he has posted his very early impressions in his September 11 blog entry here:

http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html

He is only one reviewer, and he's not a bird photographer, but he has a lot of experience and I tend to trust his evaluations. Also these are just his very first impressions. His final conclusions may change after he posts his much more detailed entries with examples. A few key excerpts:

Exceptional tonal range and "drop dead" fantastic overall image quality at low ISO's (ISO 64 to about ISO 250). After just over 2,000 shots over a range of conditions (and ISO values) there is no doubt in my mind that this is a superb landscape camera that exceeds the image quality of the D800e and/or D810 by a significant margin.

Burst Rate: NOT exactly as advertised. ...What have I found when shooting full-size 14-bit uncompressed raw files? When using a Lexar Professional XQD 2933x card (440 MB/s) I get approx 40 shots at 7 fps before the camera slows to about 3 fps....

ISO performance? BELOW my expectations (which were conservative) ... the D850 seems particularly high in luminosity noise... the D850 and D500 are exceptionally close in the amount of noise they exhibit at various ISO's (with the D500 having only a VERY small edge over the D850...in the "1/3 stop at most" range). While this may disappoint some (and doesn't come close to matching some of the early and unrealistic marketing "hype" about the D850), I personally think that in an absolute sense the D850 has outstanding ISO performance for a 45.7 MP DSLR.

Dave
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Old Monday 11th September 2017, 22:01   #44
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https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nik...sions-review/6

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Chart...0,Nikon%20D850

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Old Thursday 21st September 2017, 16:47   #45
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one of the first shots !
D850 + 200-500
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Old Friday 22nd September 2017, 16:45   #46
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Understatement of the year ! I'm happy.
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Old Sunday 24th September 2017, 02:38   #47
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Hi Les,

Nice. Thanks for posting those shots

It looks like your new toy has solved your system dilemmas!

I have been mulling over a few questions in my head (primarily D850 vs D500 - they are very similar, yet different).

The D850 has a few % larger pixel pitch than the D500, though when cropped (or in-camera mode) to DX size it has a couple of % less resolution. Overall though very similar. With the D850's pixel pitch advantage and more advanced BSI sensor I would have expected a DR advantage to the D850 when comparing apples to apples DX mode - yet this is not what some initial analyses show (Bill Claff's http://www.photonstophotos.net/ --- only one source, I know ...)

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In fact far from an advantage (apart from ISO64 which the D500 can't match) , the D850 lags the D500, and they both lag the D7200 up to ISO400 (which matches nicely with my experience of the D7200 and what I have seen of the D500). Okay so the D7200 gets ruled out on AF system and performance and its slower framer rate ....

The D850 has that wonderful shallow depth of field that only a FF can provide, but I'm wondering (given the DR charts) whether I would be better off with the D500 since birds (usually far away!) will be 90% of the usage. Perhaps I expected too much from the BSI tech?

I know you had the D500 setup in the past (and had similar thoughts to me about it's sensor performance/IQ) , and so would be interested in your thoughts on how you are finding the D850 compares ?? Thanks.



Chosun

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Old Sunday 24th September 2017, 08:32   #48
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Hi Chosun

Given my limited time ( i'm about to move house ) I can only say I much prefer d850 over my 2 attempts with d500. Much easier for bifs because you have much bigger area to frame the bird with same amount of pixels on actual bird . I think sensor is better but again not enough time ( it is full frame ). I did my standard test shots ( which unfortunately I didnt keep ) at 3200 and 4000 iso , these were definitely better with d850 . I'll see if I can get a bit more time to play !
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Old Sunday 24th September 2017, 20:00   #49
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Hope you stay happy Les. I was interested in the Fuji system until you ditched it in next to no time.
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Old Sunday 24th September 2017, 21:39   #50
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You should here what my wife says . The struggle has been about weight which I gave up on . Then of course the pics from fuji weren't exactly brilliant. This one stays ( so I've been told ! )
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