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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 16:10   #1
Omid
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Zeiss moving out of Wetzlar

I have heard from highly credible sources that Zeiss has decided to move its sports optics operation out of Wetzlar. They will be moving the division to Oberkochen.
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 16:30   #2
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Iv never heard of Oberkochen China...?????....
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 16:36   #3
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Iv never heard of Oberkochen China...?????....
Zeiss Corporate Headquarters are there.
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 19:29   #4
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Omid, if it is true it would be a big shock for the city of Wetzlar, once the place where Hensoldt, Leitz, Hartmann, Docter etc.etc. and many small and in their time well-known optical companies had their home, would then quicky losing its optical industry....
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 19:36   #5
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No,

They will still be in Wetzlar.

Some administration offices are moving to the Oberkochen headquarters.
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 19:38   #6
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There were a couple of reports in German newspapers. According to these articles, Zeiss announced cutting jobs in the Sport Optics site in Wetzlar. Part of the jobs will be cut, part of the jobs will be moved to Oberkochen (where the camera lens division is located) and part of the jobs will remain in Wetzlar, including for production (final assembly, service).
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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 19:59   #7
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No,

They will still be in Wetzlar.

Some administration offices are moving to the Oberkochen headquarters.
Well, there is not going to be a lot left in Wetzlar... 80 jobs including development, product management, sales and marketing are going to be moved to Oberkochen while the Sports Optics department is merged with the Camera Objective department.

The manufacturing staff will be reduced by 140 with 110 left in Wetzlar. Those left will only do final assembly, repair and service. Obviously more of the manufacturing is transferred to hungary according to a trade union source...

A Zeiss spokesman mentioned a 15 million euro deficit over the last 3 years and stressed that "Made in Germany" is still important for the Zeiss group - although not for sports optics any more...

Source(german only): https://www.mittelhessen.de/lokales/...d,1080630.html

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Old Sunday 22nd October 2017, 23:46   #8
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And people say how great it is to have all these cheap Chinese clones.....this is what happens - big guns will no longer want to pursue a smaller and smaller slice of the pie, competing against ''brands'' with near-zero investment in R&D.

Sure, it's great for consumers that want good and inexpensive optics but I still think the industry is healthier with a vibrant grandee component driving innovation.

It's a bit like F1 at the moment - if the grid was without Ferrari and Mercedes, and composed of mostly independents, the price of racing would drop and [arguably] the racing would be closer but [to me] this wouldn't be F1 anymore.
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Old Monday 23rd October 2017, 08:34   #9
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And people say how great it is to have all these cheap Chinese clones.....this is what happens - big guns will no longer want to pursue a smaller and smaller slice of the pie, competing against ''brands'' with near-zero investment in R&D.

(...)
Not sure about the optics industry, don't really know much about that, but in many other industries, the Chinese are already right there at the forefront of R&D. The days of simple cloning are in the past.

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Old Monday 23rd October 2017, 11:16   #10
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I have heard from highly credible sources that Zeiss has decided to move its sports optics operation out of Wetzlar. They will be moving the division to Oberkochen.
IMHO it's only common sence to do this when you have the luxuary to have the same production facility in Hungary, Wetzlar and Oberkochen and being confronted with over production capacity, to shut down one of the three. Running a business askes sometimes for hard choices.

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Old Monday 23rd October 2017, 17:02   #11
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IMHO it's only common sence to do this when you have the luxuary to have the same production facility in Hungary, Wetzlar and Oberkochen and being confronted with over production capacity, to shut down one of the three. Running a business askes sometimes for hard choices.
Hi,

if this was just some company, I'd agree - but this is Carl Zeiss AG belonging to the not for profit Carl Zeiss Foundation...

https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/int/...oundation.html

See especially the Objectives and Responsibilities tab...

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Old Monday 23rd October 2017, 20:31   #12
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Hi,

if this was just some company, I'd agree - but this is Carl Zeiss AG belonging to the not for profit Carl Zeiss Foundation...

https://www.zeiss.com/corporate/int/...oundation.html

See especially the Objectives and Responsibilities tab...

Joachim
Hi Joachim,

Yes, I am familiar with the statutes of the Foundation and believe that Ernst Abbe ment well, but does the vision he had back than still counts for 2017. CZ is a modern worldwide operating company, Sport Optics is run by modern spreadsheet managers and Oberkochen suits move in mysterious ways.

I agree with you completely, but nobody can denie that 15million.

It's hard.

Jan

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Old Wednesday 25th October 2017, 22:59   #13
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Omid, if it is true it would be a big shock for the city of Wetzlar, once the place where Hensoldt, Leitz, Hartmann, Docter etc.etc. and many small and in their time well-known optical companies had their home, would then quicky losing its optical industry....
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Hi Gijs,

Sorry for the delayed response, I am traveling in the US East Coast. Yes, there will be major implications, specifically not all the skilled workers and high-level staff might be willing to relocate so some will depart Zeiss. It is also a sad news for the town of Wetzlar. Leica is still there but they are not the same size as Zeiss.

That's the sad faith of a prestigious company that is run by bean-counter managers. If Dr. Dobler would have listen to me back in 2010 and maybe adapted one of my inventions into a product, this could have been prevented Zeiss Sports Optics is losing money because it is no longer leading, they are just following [stupid] trends that have been initiated by other optics companies such as Swarovski. They recently introduced the most outrageous hunting rifle scope with a 36mm main tube and 8X zoom ratio. This is the biggest and ugliest blunder ever.. I repeatedly gave presentations on my ideas but they showed no interest.. When one of their product managers quit in 2011, he immoderately contacted me and expressed interest in my concepts. He has licensed two of my invention since for development through his own OEM channels. Zeiss Sports Optics is not innovating. It is not surprising that its "new" products are not selling as well.

-Omid

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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 08:37   #14
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Hi Gijs,

Sorry for the delayed response, I am traveling in the US East Coast. Yes, there will be major implications, specifically not all the skilled workers and high-level staff might be willing to relocate so some will depart Zeiss. It is also a sad news for the town of Wetzlar. Leica is still there but they are not the same size as Zeiss.

That's the sad faith of a prestigious company that is run by bean-counter managers. If Dr. Dobler would have listen to me back in 2010 and maybe adapted one of my inventions into a product, this could have been prevented Zeiss Sports Optics is losing money because it is no longer leading, they are just following [stupid] trends that have been initiated by other optics companies such as Swarovski. They recently introduced the most outrageous hunting rifle scope with a 36mm main tube and 8X zoom ratio. This is the biggest and ugliest blunder ever.. I repeatedly gave presentations on my ideas but they showed no interest.. When one of their product managers quit in 2011, he immoderately contacted me and expressed interest in my concepts. He has licensed two of my invention since for development through his own OEM channels. Zeiss Sports Optics is not innovating. It is not surprising that its "new" products are not selling as well.

-Omid
Omid,

Not in the Swaro/Zeiss defending mode, but.....

Don't know where it comes from, your insights show some remarkeble views, but facing that 15 million a bean counter management doesn't strike me as a bad thing.
Assuming that your inventions would have prevented all this, as you stated, and calling Swarovski's latest rifle scope their biggest and ugliest blunder (while it is one of their biggest sales succes ever) makes me wonder how much frustration has troubled your insights.
When Swarovski HQ show no interest in any of your inventions but a former employee does, says nothing IMHO about Swarovski.

Fact is and stays that it's a bloody shame that Zeiss Sport Optics leaves Wetzlar but I can not imagine Zeiss has taken such a decision lightly.

So, according to you, it is Dr. Dobler to blame. Mmmmm, sorry mate, can't take you serious.

Jan

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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 09:00   #15
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Hi Gijs,

Sorry for the delayed response, I am traveling in the US East Coast. Yes, there will be major implications, specifically not all the skilled workers and high-level staff might be willing to relocate so some will depart Zeiss. It is also a sad news for the town of Wetzlar. Leica is still there but they are not the same size as Zeiss.

That's the sad faith of a prestigious company that is run by bean-counter managers. If Dr. Dobler would have listen to me back in 2010 and maybe adapted one of my inventions into a product, this could have been prevented Zeiss Sports Optics is losing money because it is no longer leading, they are just following [stupid] trends that have been initiated by other optics companies such as Swarovski. They recently introduced the most outrageous hunting rifle scope with a 36mm main tube and 8X zoom ratio. This is the biggest and ugliest blunder ever.. I repeatedly gave presentations on my ideas but they showed no interest.. When one of their product managers quit in 2011, he immoderately contacted me and expressed interest in my concepts. He has licensed two of my invention since for development through his own OEM channels. Zeiss Sports Optics is not innovating. It is not surprising that its "new" products are not selling as well.

-Omid
I love the 8x zoom ratio for the Victory V8's but agree the 36mm tube is stupid, why add extra weight /bulk that is not need. Also they don't make any 42mm in the Victory line which has put me off buying any V8's. Anyway the big thing now is long range, so hopefully they make nice FFP scope.

Agree Zeiss is not innovating as much as it could be, but it is a big company and I guess the focus is departments that makes heaps of money for the foundation... Sad, but it is the way of the world.
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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 09:41   #16
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I love the 8x zoom ratio for the Victory V8's but agree the 36mm tube is stupid, why add extra weight /bulk that is not need. Also they don't make any 42mm in the Victory line which has put me off buying any V8's. Anyway the big thing now is long range, so hopefully they make nice FFP scope.

Agree Zeiss is not innovating as much as it could be, but it is a big company and I guess the focus is departments that makes heaps of money for the foundation... Sad, but it is the way of the world.
SBB,

I was under the impression Omid was talking about the Swarovski rifle scope but the reason to go for a 36mm tube is to make the possibiity to create more clicks for long range distances, something which seems impossible with a 30mm tube. The extra weight is 130 gram.

Like Dr. Dobler earlier mentioned; solutions comes with compromises.
Others might call it stupid

Jan
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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 10:40   #17
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SBB,

I was under the impression Omid was talking about the Swarovski rifle scope but the reason to go for a 36mm tube is to make the possibiity to create more clicks for long range distances, something which seems impossible with a 30mm tube. The extra weight is 130 gram.

Like Dr. Dobler earlier mentioned; solutions comes with compromises.
Others might call it stupid

Jan
Oh yeah, you are be right. Dr Gerold Dobler left Swarovski for Zeiss ... so he was talking to Dr Dobler getting Zeiss to innovate but instead Zeiss follows Swarovski. My mistake, I was reading too fast. The new ds Swarovski scope with inbuilt range looks like Swarovski is innovating though. Too bad for Zeiss. wonder how long they will come up with something similiar.

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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 13:22   #18
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Oh yeah, you are be right. Dr Gerold Dobler left Swarovski for Zeiss ... so he was talking to Dr Dobler getting Zeiss to innovate but instead Zeiss follows Swarovski. My mistake, I was reading too fast. The new ds Swarovski scope with inbuilt range looks like Swarovski is innovating though. Too bad for Zeiss. wonder how long they will come up with something similiar.
Hi SBB,

Actually Dr. Dobler went from Swarovski to Leica (which costed Leica a significant amount of money) and was there reponseble for the development of the Magnus riflescope. After that he went to Zeiss and developed the V8 (among other innovating items).
The difference in weight between the Zeiss V6 (30mm tube) and the Zeis V8 (36mm tube for longe range) is just 130 gram.

The Swarovski riflescope DS is indeed an "innovating" piece of work.
For those who don't now: Swarovski brought recently a riflescope on the market which enables to hit an animal from a distance up to 1300 metres. The red dot in the scope automatically elevates with the variabel distance. The only thing is does not compensate is the side wind factor.
One could ask him/herself wether a "birding" brand like Swarovski should innovate in such equipment, but that's a quite different story.

Jan.
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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 13:38   #19
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Actually Dr. Dobler went from Swarovski to Leica (which costed Leica a significant amount of money) and was there reponseble for the development of the Magnus riflescope.
And afterwards, Swarovski sued Leica on patent infringement with the Magnus scope. Not sure how it ended, but I guess Leica won, as they still sell these scopes.

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One could ask him/herself wether a "birding" brand like Swarovski should innovate in such equipment, but that's a quite different story.
All of these brands are as much a hunting brand as a birding brand. But they conveniently allow us to ignore this by pressing the "nature" button when entering their websites.
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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 14:19   #20
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And afterwards, Swarovski sued Leica on patent infringement with the Magnus scope. Not sure how it ended, but I guess Leica won, as they still sell these scopes.

All of these brands are as much a hunting brand as a birding brand. But they conveniently allow us to ignore this by pressing the "nature" button when entering their websites.
Both Leica and Swarovski won't quote on that issue, so somehow they came to an agreement.......

Regarding the second alinea; you're absolutely right.

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Old Thursday 26th October 2017, 18:21   #21
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SBB,
I was under the impression Omid was talking about the Swarovski rifle scope
Jan

Hi Jan,

As you yourself noted, I was talking about Zeiss scopes not Swarovski. Our subject here is Zeiss: a company that I love and respect very much and that's exactly why I care to critique their products. (We can also critique Swarovski product development but that's not the subject of discussion here, I do respect Swarovski and Leica too and I would, in due course, critique their products for exact same reason: I love them, care for them and wish them success.)

Quote:
the reason to go for a 36mm tube is to make the possibiity to create more clicks for long range distances, something which seems impossible with a 30mm tube. The extra weight is 130 gram.
This is exactly why I called their solution "stupid". It is in fact possible to have a large elevation adjustment range in a 30mm tube scope (and even in a one-inch tube scope) and Zeiss was told about it: I have invented a new riflescope adjustment technique which allows unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a rifle scope of any tube diameter. In my suggested method, the reticle and the erector lenses are not moved up and down inside the main tube. The riflescope's point of aim is adjusted optically using thin wedge prisms that move longitudinally or rotate about the optical axis. All the lenses and the reticle will remain fixed and centered on the optical axis. See US Patent 8,749,887; US Patent 9,164, 269 and US Patent 9,644, 920.

I have since developed even more elegant concepts that allow unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a riflescope of any tube diameter while, at the same time, there are no moving parts inside the scope, there are no turrets, all the optical lenses are centered on the optical axis! Patent applications for these concepts are still pending


Quote:
Like Dr. Dobler earlier mentioned; solutions comes with compromises.
Others might call it stupid
Well, as I demonstrated in my comments above, sometimes an amateur might come up with a better solution than a whole team of experts. Dr. Dobler is very nice man and avid birdwatcher. He is not a hunter though (as far as I know). He is not the cause of Zeiss failing financially. He is one component in a large corporate culture that prevents a manager from taking risky decisions. As a result, NOTHING NEW HAPPENS. Here are the exact words of my friend (former Director of Product Management/Hunting at Zeiss) written to me in 2013:
"The reasons for my leave are diverse – but in a nut shell – ZEISS and myself are deriving from totally different cultures: In my previous jobs I was used to work very independently based on ‘trust’ shown by the executive board (Swarovski Optik, Leica Camera) or the shareholder (Gerhard Swarvoski, Andreas Kaufmann) respectively. So we had lots of discussions in ‘qualitative’ terms (brand/line strategy, positioning, performance, features) and very little in ‘quantitative’ terms (business plans, exchange rates, volume estimates, regional forecasts). At ZEISS – dealing only with strangely aloof bean counters with no-whatsoever understanding of the sports optics market (actually of consumer markets as a whole) – every project started (and very often ended) with nigh-shift Power Point and Excel battles throwing numbers at each other just to get some ‘no-brainer’-project released. And I am not only talking a million or two investments, I am talking releases of 10,000 EURO-budgets for inititialization projects (pre-pre-development / proof of concept).

That said, many of my promising, disruptive innovation projects (including the topics with you) ended before the actual evaluation phase as my German bean counters where looking for a ‘guaranteed’ payback of each EURO spent within a year or so. Ridicolous – and not a viable business culture (at least in the consumer market world)."
It seems inevitable that any big company ends up turning into a giant mechanical machine which perpetuates its initial motion under inertia. I wouldn't blame Zeiss for not adapting or making my inventions after an initial test. But they didn't even do that, they got busy inventing the next "big thing" on their own and they achieved it [literally ].

-Omid

PS. SBB, I appreciate your supportive comments in Post #15. It is good to know I am not alone in my opinion about Zeiss V8 scopes. I recently purchased about $5000 worth of Zeiss optics but they were the previous Varipoint models; outstanding products from every aspect..

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Old Friday 27th October 2017, 04:31   #22
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Omid, it is sad that such a wonderful company is turning to such. I guess Zeiss is typical of the new management type of companies where they are run by MBA/ bean counters vs technical people. This is especially evident in high tech environments where we have seen massive failings. Eg BP Macondo disaster was cause by cost cutting, Enron, Kodak, Nokia, etc... Good luck with your patents. They look to be amazing and hopefully working scopes will comeout soon which we can buy.

Jan,
very interesting, didn't know that Dr Dobler was at Leica. I always wondered why the Leicas Magnus scopes looked so similar to Swaros. Now I know.

have a great weekend boys!
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Old Friday 27th October 2017, 13:02   #23
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Hi Jan,

As you yourself noted, I was talking about Zeiss scopes not Swarovski. Our subject here is Zeiss: a company that I love and respect very much and that's exactly why I care to critique their products. (We can also critique Swarovski product development but that's not the subject of discussion here, I do respect Swarovski and Leica too and I would, in due course, critique their products for exact same reason: I love them, care for them and wish them success.)



This is exactly why I called their solution "stupid". It is in fact possible to have a large elevation adjustment range in a 30mm tube scope (and even in a one-inch tube scope) and Zeiss was told about it: I have invented a new riflescope adjustment technique which allows unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a rifle scope of any tube diameter. In my suggested method, the reticle and the erector lenses are not moved up and down inside the main tube. The riflescope's point of aim is adjusted optically using thin wedge prisms that move longitudinally or rotate about the optical axis. All the lenses and the reticle will remain fixed and centered on the optical axis. See US Patent 8,749,887; US Patent 9,164, 269 and US Patent 9,644, 920.

I have since developed even more elegant concepts that allow unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a riflescope of any tube diameter while, at the same time, there are no moving parts inside the scope, there are no turrets, all the optical lenses are centered on the optical axis! Patent applications for these concepts are still pending




Well, as I demonstrated in my comments above, sometimes an amateur might come up with a better solution than a whole team of experts. Dr. Dobler is very nice man and avid birdwatcher. He is not a hunter though (as far as I know). He is not the cause of Zeiss failing financially. He is one component in a large corporate culture that prevents a manager from taking risky decisions. As a result, NOTHING NEW HAPPENS. Here are the exact words of my friend (former Director of Product Management/Hunting at Zeiss) written to me in 2013:
"The reasons for my leave are diverse – but in a nut shell – ZEISS and myself are deriving from totally different cultures: In my previous jobs I was used to work very independently based on ‘trust’ shown by the executive board (Swarovski Optik, Leica Camera) or the shareholder (Gerhard Swarvoski, Andreas Kaufmann) respectively. So we had lots of discussions in ‘qualitative’ terms (brand/line strategy, positioning, performance, features) and very little in ‘quantitative’ terms (business plans, exchange rates, volume estimates, regional forecasts). At ZEISS – dealing only with strangely aloof bean counters with no-whatsoever understanding of the sports optics market (actually of consumer markets as a whole) – every project started (and very often ended) with nigh-shift Power Point and Excel battles throwing numbers at each other just to get some ‘no-brainer’-project released. And I am not only talking a million or two investments, I am talking releases of 10,000 EURO-budgets for inititialization projects (pre-pre-development / proof of concept).

That said, many of my promising, disruptive innovation projects (including the topics with you) ended before the actual evaluation phase as my German bean counters where looking for a ‘guaranteed’ payback of each EURO spent within a year or so. Ridicolous – and not a viable business culture (at least in the consumer market world)."
It seems inevitable that any big company ends up turning into a giant mechanical machine which perpetuates its initial motion under inertia. I wouldn't blame Zeiss for not adapting or making my inventions after an initial test. But they didn't even do that, they got busy inventing the next "big thing" on their own and they achieved it [literally ].

-Omid

PS. SBB, I appreciate your supportive comments in Post #15. It is good to know I am not alone in my opinion about Zeiss V8 scopes. I recently purchased about $5000 worth of Zeiss optics but they were the previous Varipoint models; outstanding products from every aspect..
Hi Omid,

First of all, personally I would not be amused to find a private conversation on a public Forum but that's up to you.

I am not in the position to Judge over your invention and the 36mm Zeiss scope. I don't see Swaro/Leica/Zeiss/Schmidt&Bender going into your direction, but who knows in future?

I think we are in general agreement about "management" and your correspondence with the man we all know on this Forum prooves it all.

Jan
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Old Saturday 28th October 2017, 08:01   #24
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Hi Jan,

As you yourself noted, I was talking about Zeiss scopes not Swarovski. Our subject here is Zeiss: a company that I love and respect very much and that's exactly why I care to critique their products. (We can also critique Swarovski product development but that's not the subject of discussion here, I do respect Swarovski and Leica too and I would, in due course, critique their products for exact same reason: I love them, care for them and wish them success.)



This is exactly why I called their solution "stupid". It is in fact possible to have a large elevation adjustment range in a 30mm tube scope (and even in a one-inch tube scope) and Zeiss was told about it: I have invented a new riflescope adjustment technique which allows unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a rifle scope of any tube diameter. In my suggested method, the reticle and the erector lenses are not moved up and down inside the main tube. The riflescope's point of aim is adjusted optically using thin wedge prisms that move longitudinally or rotate about the optical axis. All the lenses and the reticle will remain fixed and centered on the optical axis. See US Patent 8,749,887; US Patent 9,164, 269 and US Patent 9,644, 920.

I have since developed even more elegant concepts that allow unlimited elevation and windage adjustment in a riflescope of any tube diameter while, at the same time, there are no moving parts inside the scope, there are no turrets, all the optical lenses are centered on the optical axis! Patent applications for these concepts are still pending




Well, as I demonstrated in my comments above, sometimes an amateur might come up with a better solution than a whole team of experts. Dr. Dobler is very nice man and avid birdwatcher. He is not a hunter though (as far as I know). He is not the cause of Zeiss failing financially. He is one component in a large corporate culture that prevents a manager from taking risky decisions. As a result, NOTHING NEW HAPPENS. Here are the exact words of my friend (former Director of Product Management/Hunting at Zeiss) written to me in 2013:
"The reasons for my leave are diverse – but in a nut shell – ZEISS and myself are deriving from totally different cultures: In my previous jobs I was used to work very independently based on ‘trust’ shown by the executive board (Swarovski Optik, Leica Camera) or the shareholder (Gerhard Swarvoski, Andreas Kaufmann) respectively. So we had lots of discussions in ‘qualitative’ terms (brand/line strategy, positioning, performance, features) and very little in ‘quantitative’ terms (business plans, exchange rates, volume estimates, regional forecasts). At ZEISS – dealing only with strangely aloof bean counters with no-whatsoever understanding of the sports optics market (actually of consumer markets as a whole) – every project started (and very often ended) with nigh-shift Power Point and Excel battles throwing numbers at each other just to get some ‘no-brainer’-project released. And I am not only talking a million or two investments, I am talking releases of 10,000 EURO-budgets for inititialization projects (pre-pre-development / proof of concept).

That said, many of my promising, disruptive innovation projects (including the topics with you) ended before the actual evaluation phase as my German bean counters where looking for a ‘guaranteed’ payback of each EURO spent within a year or so. Ridicolous – and not a viable business culture (at least in the consumer market world)."
It seems inevitable that any big company ends up turning into a giant mechanical machine which perpetuates its initial motion under inertia. I wouldn't blame Zeiss for not adapting or making my inventions after an initial test. But they didn't even do that, they got busy inventing the next "big thing" on their own and they achieved it [literally ].

-Omid

PS. SBB, I appreciate your supportive comments in Post #15. It is good to know I am not alone in my opinion about Zeiss V8 scopes. I recently purchased about $5000 worth of Zeiss optics but they were the previous Varipoint models; outstanding products from every aspect..

Omid,

Your frustration is understandable, and in fact I have heard similar complaints about the lack of flexibility when it comes to innovations at Zeiss Sport Optics. It seems that the professional section of Zeiss (optics for medical applications, for industrial microchip production and so on) are so much remote from the consumer optics section, that it might be better to separate them entirely and make Sport Optics a separate company. Whether or not they would be able to survive is, of course, a matter of question.

You don't worry: If you manage to produce your idea together with another manufacturer, and it turns out to be useful, then you might find Zeiss, Swaro, Blaser and others being in a battle to take over that company :-)

Good luck,
Holger
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Old Saturday 28th October 2017, 17:49   #25
Canip
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Interesting that you mention Blaser, Holger.
They are new in the market, so I wonder whether they will be ready to make a move as you suggest.
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