Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 06:00   #1
fleurviola
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 11
"Immersion" - What Price Glory?

I've read numerous viewers' writings about the "immersive" experience of a fine pair of binoculars: the sensation of a direct link between the scene and the viewer, with no device in between. I've had limited direct experience of such a phenomenon, and would like to ask what binoculars give you that feeling.

Allied with, and probably components of, "immersion" are stereoscopic effect, field of view, and depth of field. Do you agree?

Can you tell me which bins, in your experience, have the qualities of immersion? Maybe this will give me an idea of where to search for this experience, and what it might cost. No doubt the top price models share this attribute, but is that the only place it can it be found?
fleurviola is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 08:22   #2
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,479
I think immersion can mean slightly different things to different people. For example for the binos to seem to disappear, some folks need them to have very balanced/controlled distortions, others emphasise freedom from chromatic aberration or need sharpness all the way to the edge, while still others cite a large field of view.

I am one of the latter. If a bino has a narrow field of view then the 'tunnel vision' constantly reminds me I am looking through binos. If the field of view is wider then its a different and immersive world.

Once I get up to 130 -135m at 1,000m and wider I am in that immersive world so quite a few good quality 8x32s do the trick (Meopta B1 8x32, Kowa Genesis 8x33, Opticron Traveller 8x32, Zeiss FL 8x32, Zeiss Conquest HD 8x32) and Zeiss's SF 8x42 with 148m and 8x is terrific.

IMHO you need to find out what works for you and if you are a nature observer the best thing about the 'immersive experience' is that you can forget about the binos and concentrate on what you are observing.

Lee

Last edited by Troubador : Tuesday 26th December 2017 at 08:28.
Troubador is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 08:44   #3
wllmspd
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Hampton
Posts: 77
The old ultrawide (10degree) 7x35 Porro models of yesterdecades. Many models available. Quite heavy and the eyerelief is quite short, but sure gets the field stop out of the way and allows you to enjoy the view. It’s good to be able to catch motion in your peripheral vision, helps find things.

Peter
wllmspd is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 10:46   #4
Gijs van Ginkel
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: utrecht
Posts: 1,259
Lee, post 2,
Immersion is a typical Dutch invention, you can read the beginning of it in my power point presentation published on the WEB-site of House of Outdoor, which describes the optical inventions and the optical industry in The Netherlands from around 1600-2013. Around 1980 other developments led to much better and deeper immersion experiences which originate in the Dutch coffee shops, where ordinary people discovered that you do not need an investment of hunderds or thousands of euros for top of the line binoculars with all their limitations like color diffraction, astigmatism, coma, distorsion of images etc.etc. to receive deep observations of immersion by buying some of the stuff supplied there. Very clever invention so the Dutch optical industry took a very different turn and, if we look a bit further across the North Sea and go to the small village of Daresbury, close to Manchester, where the famous inventor Lewis Caroll had his home base and where he described the beautiful immersion experiences in "Through the looking glass" by Alice, so many examples of highly sophisticated and deep immersion experiences without having to spent a lot of money and one does not even have to use the eyes a lot.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs van Ginkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 12:29   #5
Synaps
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gijs van Ginkel View Post
Lee, post 2,
.... Around 1980 other developments led to much better and deeper immersion experiences which originate in the Dutch coffee shops, where ordinary people discovered that you do not need an investment of hunderds or thousands of euros for top of the line binoculars with all their limitations like color diffraction, astigmatism, coma, distorsion of images etc.etc. to receive deep observations of immersion by buying some of the stuff supplied there. ....
Gijs van Ginkel
Just to clarify: in a Dutch coffee shop, they don't serve much coffee, although you could get coffee if you really want to. The coffee shop business is mainly about that green smelly weedy "stuff" some like to smoke

Beautiful, bright vibrant colors tend to enhance my viewing/immersion experience

Last edited by Synaps : Tuesday 26th December 2017 at 12:57.
Synaps is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 12:46   #6
looksharp65
Registered User
 
looksharp65's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Varberg, Sweden
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by fleurviola View Post
Can you tell me which bins, in your experience, have the qualities of immersion? Maybe this will give me an idea of where to search for this experience, and what it might cost. No doubt the top price models share this attribute, but is that the only place it can it be found?
Definitely the Nikon E II 8x30. To large extent because of the wide AFOV, but also the porro build style which contributes to the immersive experience with more pronounced 3D cues.

Other factors like sharpness, contrast, color representation, straylight handling and more need to be in place. Otherwise their absence will rapidly degrade the "immersion".

Thus, a very "clear" roof binocular is better than a dirty old porro with single-coated or uncoated lenses.
But it's my firm opinion that the E II beats just about everything else out there in the immersion contest.

//L
__________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby_lenses - The Viking optics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuBYpRkbzrs - The Viking War Cry
looksharp65 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 14:00   #7
14Goudvink
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Hague
Posts: 361
Another vote for the EII.

Besides the factors already mentioned maybe the shortish eye-relief of the EII has something to do with its 'immersiveness' too?

And its curved field? Often the bird in the hedge AND the field in the foreground (closer to me) are both in focus at the same time. How's that for edge-to-edge sharpness? ;-)

The other day I was casually comparing 8x42 Noctovid, Zeiss SF and 8.5x42 SV FP, focussing more on differences in handling than on optical characteristics. Then I put my EII to my eyes and it was as if I had more magnification and could see more detail. When I checked more carefully this wasn't the case, but with the EII I was right 'there' in the scene, 'with' the target I was looking at. The difference really hit me. Maybe it's just that I'm so accustomed to the EII, but I saved a lot of money that day :-)

George

Last edited by 14Goudvink : Tuesday 26th December 2017 at 14:19.
14Goudvink is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 14:11   #8
Torview
Registered User
 
Torview's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Dartmoor.
Posts: 2,030
A tripod mounted 8.5x42 ELFP is mighty impressive to me, when its rock steady you can really appreciate just how good that view is.
Torview is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 15:27   #9
dries1
Registered User
 
dries1's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 155
When by myself walking in the woods on a clear bright day, there is nothing like a EII with the FOV and the depth of field. I wonder for the sake of it, how good would a 7X30 EII, can you imagine what depth of field would be like? Take a look through an older NVA 7X40 porro, reticle removed, spot on collimation and crystal clear optics, you will really appreciate what depth of field is.

Andy W.
dries1 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 16:44   #10
paul2013
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wasatch
Posts: 188
I think Lee is correct that the term might mean slightly different things to different people (and maybe my standards are just lower... )

For me, a reasonably sharp, reasonably wide view with enough eye relief to allow the field stop circle to "disappear" into my mid peripheral vision feels "immersive." The "3D" effect of porros probably enhances the effect, but I also get it with my Japanese 7x42 roofs.
paul2013 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 17:59   #11
Steve C
Registered User
 
Steve C's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Klamath Falls, Oregon
Posts: 3,409
Virtual reality headsets get to immersive. Even an excellent, still by today's standards, late model Bushnell Rangemaster 7x35 and an 11* field don't quite get there, for what I'd describe as immersive. So Lee is correct about different meanings for different people.

As a contrary view, too much fov can be distracting. You can go from say a 7* fov to an 11* fov. That is fine and many, even most, would prefer the view. However we take our our DNA inherited narrow focus vision into an immensely larger viewing area. At some point that will get distracting, particularly in a target rich environment.

People like to use adjectives to try and explain their perceptions of the view they adore. Immersive is a good one. At one end of the scale too little is just that. At the other end we get to more than enough. We differ where we all sit on the scale.
__________________
Steve

"Do what you can, where you are, with what you have" Teddy Roosevelt.

Last edited by Steve C : Tuesday 26th December 2017 at 18:03.
Steve C is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2009 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 20:30   #12
tenex
Registered User
 
tenex's Avatar

 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Colorado
Posts: 100
I think immersion = richness, a feast for our most important sensory organs. Aside from narrow technical goals (military, hunting, identifying birds) the binocular view is about enjoying visual perception: field of view, sharpness across the field, detail (magnification), brightness, contrast, color, resolution, plasticity (OK, that was just a joke about the Noctivid), stereoscopism, freedom from defects (aberrations etc), and so on. As others have said, which of these are more important to you is a matter of personal taste, as is your threshold of satisfaction. No binocular is perfect, even as they approach $3K, as you can easily confirm by trying a few... not to mention physical considerations of size, weight/balance, ease of focusing etc. For me, a high quality 32mm glass is ideal and my taste runs to Leica, anything from Trinovid BN to UV HD+.

Last edited by tenex : Tuesday 26th December 2017 at 20:34.
tenex is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 20:45   #13
PeterPS
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Gainesville, Palo Alto, Uppsala
Posts: 518
For me "immersive experience" is when you almost forget that there is some device between you and what you are looking at. The binos that give me that feeling are the Swaros SV 10x50 and 12x50, as well some good wide-angle porros. I think that a wide FoV is a necessary condition. A smallish ER, as suggested by a previous poster, allows you to get closer to the EP and seems also to be necessary.
PeterPS is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 22:00   #14
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Goudvink View Post
Another vote for the EII.

Besides the factors already mentioned maybe the shortish eye-relief of the EII has something to do with its 'immersiveness' too?

And its curved field? Often the bird in the hedge AND the field in the foreground (closer to me) are both in focus at the same time. How's that for edge-to-edge sharpness? ;-)

The other day I was casually comparing 8x42 Noctovid, Zeiss SF and 8.5x42 SV FP, focussing more on differences in handling than on optical characteristics. Then I put my EII to my eyes and it was as if I had more magnification and could see more detail. When I checked more carefully this wasn't the case, but with the EII I was right 'there' in the scene, 'with' the target I was looking at. The difference really hit me. Maybe it's just that I'm so accustomed to the EII, but I saved a lot of money that day :-)

George
George,

High time for you to visit the nearest coffee shop

jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Tuesday 26th December 2017, 22:19   #15
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,411
Nagler eyepieces. 82 or 84 degrees.
That is what is needed.

For some 100 degree eyepieces do the trick.

Perhaps a Nikon WX 10x binocular would work.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th December 2017, 08:06   #16
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,479
Gijs

I bow before your wisdom and sagacity. Who needs edge to edge sharpness when you can experience Dutch edge to edge fuzziness combined with a warmth of view that excels in plasticity and all manner of similar illusions?

I think you should open your own coffee shop and invite us all round to experience this Dutch hospitality Gijs's verbazingwekkende koffie

Lee
Troubador is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th December 2017, 10:03   #17
14Goudvink
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Hague
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
George,

High time for you to visit the nearest coffee shop

You also do coffee for your customers, don't you?
14Goudvink is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th December 2017, 10:09   #18
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Goudvink View Post
You also do coffee for your customers, don't you?
Would you believe me when I say we had a "grocery" above the shop, which we discovered after the ceiling came down because of waterleakage.
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th December 2017, 10:29   #19
Binastro
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: S.England
Posts: 3,411
Any truffles?
Some were just found growing in Paris.
Worth more than gold maybe.
Binastro is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 27th December 2017, 11:09   #20
Gijs van Ginkel
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: utrecht
Posts: 1,259
Synaps, post 5,
Everybody on this forum is familiar with the Dutch coffee shops and the immersive experiences of the products served there, since they have experienced it themselves quite often, so your explanation was not necessary I think.

Lee, post 16, Thank you for the appreciation of my wisdom, it was a pleasure to share it.
Now I am going to dive into the immense deep images of a newly found binocular, but it is too early to unravel the secrets of this deep, yes extremely deep immersive image quality, I have to save that for the coming year, which I hope, will be a Happy one for all of us.
Gijs van Ginkel
Gijs van Ginkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 28th December 2017, 20:42   #21
14Goudvink
Registered User

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: The Hague
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
Would you believe me when I say we had a "grocery" above the shop, which we discovered after the ceiling came down because of waterleakage.
Must have been an awful mess when the plantation came crashing through your ceiling... But now you have a shop-in-shop concept?
14Goudvink is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 29th December 2017, 13:53   #22
jan van daalen
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: maarssen holland
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Goudvink View Post
Must have been an awful mess when the plantation came crashing through your ceiling... But now you have a shop-in-shop concept?
Taking the risk we hack this thread...... yes we have the flavors green, red and blue
jan van daalen is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 29th December 2017, 14:41   #23
Troubador
Registered User
 
Troubador's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 6,479
Quote:
Originally Posted by jan van daalen View Post
Taking the risk we hack this thread...... yes we have the flavors green, red and blue

Do you serve tea too?

Lee
Troubador is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 30th December 2017, 11:59   #24
justabirdwatcher
Registered User

 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: TX
Posts: 321
For me, the first time I experienced that sensation was looking through a pair of Leica BA's back around 1994-5. I was smitten.

I think it has to do with the field of view and eye relief as much as anything - giving the sensation of looking through a tunnel, or that the binoculars "disappear" as you bring them to your eyes. Wide FOV and long eye relief are of course better at creating that feeling.

Personally, I don't "need" that feeling when I use binoculars. I am more interested in resolving ability, esp. in the center of the view, for my birding optics. For my hunting optics, I want edge to edge sharpness and good eye relief, because I often mount them on a tripod and just "look around" in the image without moving the binocular. But if I'm birding, I really only use the center of the FOV anyway.
justabirdwatcher is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Sunday 31st December 2017, 01:24   #25
Nixterdemus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central AR
Posts: 681
FOV isn't doodly-squat to me. If I move me eyeballs much off-centre I'm immersed in black. Field Curvature doesn't bother me as periphial cannot do justice to fine detail anyway though it still notes objects/movement. Ditto the sharp edge as for me a road to nowhere. I'm also about sick of all the massive ER for glasses though the eye cups will not retract far enough for me. Throw a handle on I'll peer through as opera glasses.

To me a pleasing view is little pincushion distortion added leaving mild barrel distortion w/eyecups I can sink into the back of me eyeballs & excellent control of CA. To date I've found one lowly "off" brand that fills the bill. Dominating CA better I wager than anything currently available under 1000USD. Yes, including the much ballyhooed upstarts.

So far only a mid 70's Swavorski 10x40 has run neck n neck w/it except when one moves close to the sun the Swaro unfortunately exhibits glare. I suppose I prefer not to be immersed in CA. Which is odd considering how much time I view SE-SW looking for CA through different bins.

As always YMMV ...
__________________
Celestron M2 f/5.4 100mm ED-Manfrotto 516 fluid head w/140mm sliding plate

SLV 50* 4mm-- HD-60* 4.5mm-- UWA 82* 5.5mm-- SLV 6mm-- Luminos 82* 7mm-- MWA 100* 10mm-- Luminos 15mm--TV Nagler 50* 3mm/180X - 6mm/90X Zoom

Last edited by Nixterdemus : Sunday 31st December 2017 at 01:27.
Nixterdemus is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does "Owls of Europe" worth its price? andreabert Birds Of Prey 8 Tuesday 24th November 2015 08:08
Price point "sweet spot"? paul2013 Binoculars 15 Sunday 8th September 2013 16:12
found "Audubon Water Bird Guide" at Half-Price Books! nctexasbirder Books, Magazines, Publications, Video & DVD 1 Sunday 7th January 2007 16:11

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.28746796 seconds with 34 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 19:16.