[Nickk]

I took many photos of Swifts in Northern Greece a couple of weeks ago, under the impresion they were Common Swifts. However, now that I am looking at them, I think that they are mostly Pallid (Pic #24124,24250,24191,24120) and a few Common (#24156). What do you think?

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Nickk

I took many photos of Swifts in Northern Greece a couple of weeks ago, under the impresion they were Common Swifts. However, now that I am looking at them, I think that they are mostly Pallid (Pic #24124,24250,24191,24120) and a few Common (#24156). What do you think?

Hi Nickk

I find it quite hard to sort out Pallid's without them being amongst their comparison species, the Common Swift, but studying your photos this is what I think.

A. Paillid
B. I'm fairly sure Pallid
C. Common I think (The wing tips seemed more pointed)
D. Can't tell from this angle but the whiteish head leads me to think Pallid.
E. Common I think (again I think the wing tips seemed more pointed)

The salient points to look out for with comparison with the two species are. Pallid has more rounded wing tips, not such a forked tail, structually a broader head & body and a paler look to the bird. The latter being possibly one of the harder to sort out unless you see the bird against a darker background.

I await to be shot down on my thoughts but I feel relatively confident on.

It is quite hard to ID these birds without having Common Swifts with them for comparison but it can be done. I have managed to ID at least two birds in Britain but I was lucky on both occasions having the birds fly low with dark backgrounds behind them. This helped enormously as the pale colour and dark mantle stood out.

[Julian Sykes Wildlife]

Hi Nick

I would have to say that all these have the potential for Pallid with only the last one being possibly Common.
As well as what Reader says I find the id clinches to be large white throat patch, wing shape, a notched inner wing, upperwing contrast (when seen well), and a dark eye mask.
A & B as Reader says.
I think C is a Pallid because it shows a clear eye mask and the notching to the inner wing. The throat patch isn't visible but I think the angle of the head is putting it in shadow.
D as Reader says, a very strong throat patch.
E Common (I could be wrong), as Reader says very pointed wings, only hint of a throat patch, all-over darkish impression.

[Hotspur]

I find the best pointer from photos is the scaling on the body as light can give a false impression of colour- this an exclusively pallid swift id point and i would say the first 4 are pallid and number 5 is a common

[mike coleman]

It doesn't work with photos (funnily enough) but I always find that hearing them helps in the field...
With these, it would appear that only the last one looks like a Common, just on the lack of scaled appearance and overall darkish impression, the others look good for Pallid, even the pointy wings of the middle one.

[Edward woodwood]

all Pallid for me

I lived in northern Greece and can't remember seeing many Common there

field id is extremely tricky except under the most favourable conditions

i've always found most features to be next to useless in the field although you can pick up the jizz after a lot of practice. Wingtip shape and contrast between coverts and rest of wing best feature for me

Tim

Tim

[doug_newman]

check out www.zestforbirds.co.za. Under the rarities page there is a nice link to photos comparing Common and Pallid Swifts as Pallid is a rarity in SA (Near the bottom of the list as it was seen towards the beginning of the year).

[hannu]

http://www.ebnitalia.it/QB/QB013/rondoni.htm

[hannu]

http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~cha.../palswift.html

[will bowell]

All Pallid's I would say.....

The third one, although has pointy wings is definitely Pallid- just look at that face and scalling. The last one also shows a bit of scalling and looks standard Pallid to me.

Will

[hannu]

Common can have a quite large white throat patch,
see follow link:
http://ddkkk.1g.fi/apus/Apuapu%20200...jal%208507.jpg

Also how we can disqualify A.apus ssp 'pekinensis' ?

Interesting link on the matter...
http://www.zmuc.dk/VerWeb/STAFF/ktho...95-169high.pdf

[Harry Hussey]

Hi all,
From an e-mail sent by Peter Flint to the WestPalBirds mailing group on 4th July last year:
'Even in June many of the birds (Pallid Swifts in Cyprus) were in primary
moult, earlier than the dates given in BWP for European birds. Also, according to BWP, Swifts Apus apus start their primary moult on arrival in winter quarters, and only exceptionally start in summer. So primary moult in a swift seen in Europe in summer may be an indication that it is likely to be Pallid.'
Since the birds in Pic 2 and 5 at least appear to be in active moult, with the upperpart colouration also looking good in No.2, these would appear to be Pallid Swifts on this feature alone?
The bird in No.4 also looks good for Pallid to me, for reasons mentioned by others, and No.1 could well be one also (THINK I can see pale 'scaling' on the underparts?), leaving No.3 as the toughest call.
Regards,
Harry

[Ghostly Vision]

Excellent deduction Harry, as I thought, like Jules and others above, that all were Pallid except the last one. I guess your moult thing means they are all Pallid then

GV

[Edward woodwood]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Excellent deduction Harry, as I thought, like Jules and others above, that all were Pallid except the last one. I guess your moult thing means they are all Pallid then

GV

yes sean, see my post above. A lot of experience with em makes it a bit easier.
they used to nest in my roof

Tim

[Ghostly Vision]

Alright there Timmeeh

You're right about the field features cf jizz thing; when seen in the flesh, Pallids just look like Pallids. I especially find the "blunt wing tip" thing a bit difficult to pin down in the field (easy from photo's though)

That last pic looks a helluva lot like a Common swift to me though.

GV

[stuart winter]

If I had to tell the truth I cannot see a typical Pallid in any the pics. The primary ratios all seem to favour the pointed impression of Common rather than Pallid. Additionally there doesn't seem to be any sign of the contrast between the dark outer primaries and lighter inner ones which is one of the better Pallid field marks. The general colour tones all seem to favour Common as well, but seeing that last week's Greenshank had red legs on my screen I don't dare trust it any longer.

[stuart winter]

That said, the bird in B does have a dark saddle which is a good Pallid pointer. Harry's remarks on moult are excellent, but I am pretty positive I have Common Swifts in wing moult, particularly the secondaries, in August time here in the UK.

S

[Bluetail]

Originally Posted by stuart winter

If I had to tell the truth I cannot see a typical Pallid in any the pics. The primary ratios all seem to favour the pointed impression of Common rather than Pallid. Additionally there doesn't seem to be any sign of the contrast between the dark outer primaries and lighter inner ones which is one of the better Pallid field marks. The general colour tones all seem to favour Common as well, but seeing that last week's Greenshank had red legs on my screen I don't dare trust it any longer.

I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. At the time this post was started I was in Spain, seeing plenty of both species. (I agree with GV that the blunt wings of Pallid are not nearly so easy to see in the field as the books make out - nor was the dark eye mark!) I thought I was beginning to get a feel for the difference and when I saw these pics none of them struck me as certain Pallids. I'm not saying they're Common; I'm just saying I'm now feeling very depressed!

[Carlos U]

I'm living in Seville, with plenty of both species around right now, and I find all pallid but the fifth one, which is a common swift (in my opinion).

[Th_SQ]

Moult is primaries descendant and suspended until arrival (or starts, as is the norm for Common) on winter grounds so it does not affect wing tip shape in August.

Agree that 1-4 look like Pallid. Not sure of 5 but wing tip is Pallid-like for me (last primary clearly shorter than previous).

[JANJ]

Separating Pallid and Common is very much depending on light situation! Against a dark background and in good light it´s fairly easy. As mentioned here blunt, or pointed wing tip (p1 & p3 equal in lenght with p2 longest in Pallid) is a character better seen in photos! Apart from the colour tone and plumage differences, I find jizz, when well learnt, a pretty reliable character, best seen over a period of time. Pallid has a more well feed body, especially behind it´s wings, hips (!), together with a broader head, which is rather striking when seen together with Common
I tend to agree with those who favour 1-4 as Pallid and 5 as Common. Nr 1 is a striking Pallid, which shows all the mentioned characters, notice the brownish ground colour on the body. Nr 2 Pallid on plumage, if correct in image. Nr 3, as Harry doubted which seems as a good call, but the brownish body colour points to Pallid. Nr 4 looks like Pallid on head pattern, and it looks well feed. Nr 5 is tricky, I´l leave that one, but with a lean towards Common?

JanJ

[London Birder]

for me ... Pallid x 4 and what appears to be (though not certainly) a Common (no: 5)

[Jane Turner]

Re the jizz of Pallid. I always think they give the appearance of being larger than Common swift (something about the flight and the body bulk as described by JanJ) until you get a direct size comparison when it becomes clear that it is an illusion.

I find I can see the wing-tip shape really quite easily in the field with birds against a bright sky. That said there is still a world of difference between knowing you have seen a Pallid in south Europe and proving you have seen one in northern Europe!

[JANJ]

"That said there is still a world of difference between knowing you have seen a Pallid in south Europe and proving you have seen one in northern Europe!"

That is obviously so!

JanJ

[doug_newman]

Hi All.

I have just received a copy of Swifts and Treewsifts of the world and after reading up on Pallid vs Common Swift my answers would be as follows:-

1) and 2) Pallid Swift
smaller dark area on the underwing coverts and dark patch darker than body tone. The one with the upperwing shot shows a darker saddle on the back whereas common would have a more uniform upper body tone.

3) Can't tell

4) and 5) Common Swift
Larger dark patch onthe underwing coverts matching the body colour.

All this is based onmy first reading of the book so I have no field experience with this yet but that would be my opinion.