[sphinx79]

This bird was photographed in Norway two days ago and identified as an Isabelline Wheatear - a mega bird for the country. But the identification has been challenged and there's currently a debate going on about whether it's an Isabelline or not. Thought it might be interesting for BFers to have their say.

Rgds

Greg

[dbradnum]

Interesting (and difficult) bird!

Before seeing the thread on BF, I'd looked at the photo, and wondered how it was clinched as Isabelline...

The alula isn't strikingly black and contrasting with the rest of the wing (though may be hidden in the photo?), and the eyestripe is strong behind the eye, and pretty much non existent in front... both suggest Northern Wheatear.

I wouldn't claim it as Isabelline based on that photo (though we all know how the camera does lie!). My experience with Isabelline is limited to one bird a few years ago, though, so others are better placed to comment!

[redeyedvideo]

At best, Greenland Wheatear. I would like to see an upright stance to eliminate Isabelline for certain.


Dave J

[tom mckinney]

I've seen lots of Isabelline in Spring and had exceptionally close views of some, but I've never seen one after May. Do they have much seasonal/age variation?

Are there any other photos?

[Steven Astley]

If this is a isabelline i'll eat my tilley hat (if I had one)

[StuartReeves]

Like Tom, I've only really seen Isabelline in spring. However, I have seen many autumn Northern Wheatears in all their plumage variation, and based on that experience I don't think I'd have given this bird a second look. The posture makes it difficult to judge structure, but the bill does appear relatively robust. There doesn't appear to be much black on the tail tip and it looks to me like the centres of the median and greater coverts are black. So even on a closer examination I'd still be inclined to dismiss this as a Northern. However, it is of course unwise to draw too many conclusions on the basis of a single photo like this, and in the field the bird may have appeared somewhat different, and I can't help feeling there must have been something about it that led the observer to conclude that this was an Isabelline.

Stuart

[JANJ]

There are som more photos here:http://home.online.no/~ctiller/fugle...teinskvett.jpg
JanJ

[dbradnum]

Looks to me as though the tail pattern was the feature that led to Isabelline ID... but there's not a great deal of supporting evidence elsewhere.

Just how diagnostic is the tail supposed to be?

I'd still have this down as an atypical Northern.

[tom mckinney]

In the Macmillan guide it says that you should be careful of young Northern Wheatear which can show a broader black tail band than adults.

If it is an Isabelline what age is it? If it's Northern then this is a 1st winter?

[Harry Hussey]

Hi all,
I have never seen an Isabelline Wheatear, but I think that this bird is just a Northern Wheatear, seemingly a 1st-winter bird.
I would expect Isabelline to have more contrastingly dark lores, plainer secondaries, a proportionally shorter tail, proportionally larger head etc, and generally to 'stand out' more...I have seen birds similar to the mystery one here, and these have proved to be Northerns on closer examination.
Regards,
Harry

[StuartReeves]

There are more photos at http://www.feltornitologene.no/index...yimage&pid=779, and while showing that the bird does show an Isabelline-type tail pattern, they still do not convince me that this bird is anything other than a Northern Wheatear.

Stuart

[CornishExile]

On the basis of experience of in season daily Northern Wheatears, I'm afraid I'd not entertain thinking this might be anything other than a 1st winter Northern.

Why not an autumn Issy? Broadly speaking, structurally all wrong for me - too long-tailed, not 'pot-bellied' or upright (though on just a few photos that's a sweeping generalisation), and not pale enough generally. Specifically, no nice contrasting dark alula (though that's not diagnostic, I'd expect it to be there in Issy), pale supercilium doesn't extend in front of the eye, lores aren't dark and contrasting with an otherwise whitish buff throat...

Only in one photo does this bird look pale and interesting enough to warrant a second glance for me - http://www.feltornitologene.no/index...yimage&pid=774, but from the rest of the photos, if that's an Isabelline then I'd better start reporting the ones I see daily around the house in the autumn!

ce

[StuartReeves]

The consensus here seems to be that the Norwegian bird is just a slightly odd Northern Wheatear, but it would be interesting to hear what the Norwegians have concluded, if anything. Perhaps Greg could fill us in on the state of play there ?

Stuart

[sphinx79]

Originally Posted by StuartReeves

The consensus here seems to be that the Norwegian bird is just a slightly odd Northern Wheatear, but it would be interesting to hear what the Norwegians have concluded, if anything. Perhaps Greg could fill us in on the state of play there ?

Stuart

Yes of course: the birders who claimed it as an Isabelline seem now to have retracted the ID in the face of pretty concerted opposition from a range of Norwegian and Danish birders. The consensus is that it's a Northern Wheatear - possibly a leucorhoa - with an atypical tail pattern. I reacted myself to the pictures when I first saw them which was why I posted.

Rgds

Greg

[Xenospiza]

But it does show white underwings: http://www.feltornitologene.no/index...yimage&pid=771

Anyone fluent enough in Norwegian to translate the following:
"Her må jeg innrømme at jeg var litt feilinformert, hvite undre vingedekkere kan forekomme hos vanlig steinskvett slik som Atle påpeker. Collins holder altså ikke alltid..."
I'd guess: "Could I add here that I was a little miss-informed, white underwing coverts can occur in some Wheatears", but the last part of that sentence I don't understand at all.

[sphinx79]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

But it does show white underwings: http://www.feltornitologene.no/index...yimage&pid=771

Anyone fluent enough in Norwegian to translate the following:
"Her må jeg innrømme at jeg var litt feilinformert, hvite undre vingedekkere kan forekomme hos vanlig steinskvett slik som Atle påpeker. Collins holder altså ikke alltid..."
I'd guess: "Could I add here that I was a little miss-informed, white underwing coverts can occur in some Wheatears", but the last part of that sentence I don't understand at all.

The last bit means "Collins isn't always right..."!

Greg

[Xenospiza]

Originally Posted by sphinx79

The last bit means "Collins isn't always right..."!

Greg

Yes, I got that, but I was lost with slik som Atle påpeker… "Like Atle proposed"?

Sorry that this starts to look like the name game section…

[the bird]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

Sorry that this starts to look like the name game section…

snakes and ladders

[sphinx79]

Originally Posted by Xenospiza

Yes, I got that, but I was lost with slik som Atle påpeker… "Like Atle proposed"?

Sorry that this starts to look like the name game section…

Your Norwegian is pretty good! That's the gist of it, anyway.

Greg