[Jane Turner]

More pics of Eastern ollys, showing how like Acrocephalus they can appear.

http://www.birdsoman.com/OlivaceousWarbler23951.jpg

[JANJ]

Originally Posted by Sumit

Hi Hannu,
I may be off the mark with the bird under discussion but I don't think that the bird in your link is a Thick-billed.
I think these two are:
http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/se...Family_ID=&p=2
and,
http://www.orientalbirdimages.org/se...Family_ID=&p=4
My own horrible pic of the species is attached. Bad as th epic is, it does show the crest that this species erects - very distinctive and my basis (along with the lack of a distinct supercilium) for the ID suggestion.




Cheers!
sumit

I think it is.
http://www.fugler.no/bilder/spesial/20041006.htm
JanJ

[hannu]

According to the follow link and If I understand right the id article, EOW has conspicuous white on the outer tail featherS. There is also photo from tail !
http://www.portlandbirdobs.btinterne...is_elaeica.htm

The Alsirhan's 4th photo shows us that bird's outer tail feather (6tf) has broken,..(?)

Also Alsirhan's bird has quite broad supercilium, more broaden than it should be as Hippo.

Birds looks quite confusing in this time of year and also the intensive light misinterpret probably the contrast of plumage. I'd vote for Marsh,
though I'm not 100 % sure.

[hannu]

Originally Posted by hannu

Yes, you are right ! I'm a little bit confusing these english bird names. I really wondered that photo too and I was too hasty, as I'm always. I must start to count to ten and answer after that ! Thanx, Sumit. This A. aedon has met once in Finland.
Cheers, Hannu

Sumit is wrong, Jan is right !!!!

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

More pics of Eastern ollys, showing how like Acrocephalus they can appear.

http://www.birdsoman.com/OlivaceousWarbler23951.jpg

EOW really looks like Acro, but it looks most Blyth's, as also Svensson confirm !

[Jane Turner]

Hannu - the outer t/f is broken and the tertials are worn. Despite this there are very pale tertial edges and in the last picture more than a hint of a hippolais secondary panel. The ID of southern and eastern races is hard - they are more sandy, longer-winged and smaller-billed than the birds we are used to in Europe.

[Sumit]

Originally Posted by hannu

Sumit is wrong, Jan is right !!!!

Majority opinion wins. 2:1 is overwhelming and I accept defeat !!!!!
Cheers!
Sumit

[hannu]

Latest Jane's attached Hippo photo show us clearly that Hippo has slightly shorter inner tail feathers than outer tail feathers. Also my mentioned bird in Portland has this kind of feature. According to what I have heard, this feature is very good in many cases. Also this is in the bird of message #11.
Indeed It's difficult to say about Alsirhan's bird, what kind of tail the bird has, rounded or not ?

[JANJ]

To add to the confusing, I´d say that the dark tail in the bird in #11 and the fact that it seems the emargination of the primaries falls aprox.at level with the longest tertial, which if, would rule out March and Reed, but not Blyth´s and elaeica, and languida for that matter. That darkish tail makes me think of languida. And what about the spacing of the three tertials, the middle closer to the outer than to the inner. The inner tertial are rather worn though, but wouldn´t account for the difference shown here, or would it?
What do you say hannu?
And think 10 seconds now before you move
JanJ

[hannu]

Originally Posted by JANJ

To add to the confusing, I´d say that the dark tail in the bird in #11 and the fact that it seems the emargination of the primaries falls aprox.at level with the longest tertial, which if, would rule out March and Reed, but not Blyth´s and elaeica, and languida for that matter. That darkish tail makes me think of languida. And what about the spacing of the three tertials, the middle closer to the outer than to the inner. The inner tertial are rather worn though, but wouldn´t account for the difference shown here, or would it?
What do you say hannu?
And think 10 seconds now before you move
JanJ

Jan, I'd say only that I respect the Alsirhan's wish in #13 !!!

[Klant]

There's something odd going on in the third pic (just left of the nostril). Looks like the bill is half chopped off...

[hannu]

Hippo seems to be also quite uniform colour in plumage and bill is mainly very sharp.
Also we can see the tail feature in the bird on follow link (EOW).
That individual has minimal or non-existing supercilium, not big contrast between supercilium and forehead. It really remind very much Blyth's and in my mind, it reminds sometimes also Phyllos in certain view :
http://www.fugler.no/bilder/spesial/20040912.htm

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by Klant

There's something odd going on in the third pic (just left of the nostril). Looks like the bill is half chopped off...

I have noticed this before.. I think it is the background that has same colour that intervenes with the colour of the bird (there are some feathers on the base of the bill that disappear with background). One of major disadvantage with digital pictures is the contrast with background, the background and any pale details seems to be lost in flare (a problem with digital cameras).

Here is another picture that show the bill intact. See the feathering on bill!

Alsirhan.

[Klant]

That's what I thought was going on. It's just really extreme in that pic.

[hannu]

Alsirhan,
do you have any photo where the tail of bird was better on view ?
I'll try really to clear up this 'mystery', so it helps, if we can rule out Hippo or Acro-species definitely and conclusively?

Thanx Alsirhan, that you share very interesting cases to us in the BirdForum !
In this way I can improve my id skills !

[Darrell Clegg]

Originally Posted by hannu

Thanx Alsirhan, that you share very interesting cases to us in the BirdForum !
In this way I can improve my id skills !

Hear hear,
Threads like this show BF at its best, when we can have a sensible discussion over the identification of a tricky bird.

My own impression hasn't changed in that I still believe the bird is a hippo sp , probably Olivacious, but I am open to all suggestions.

Darrell

[hannu]

Darrell and 'other Hippo fans' ;-)
I don't see that long bill-look as it should be in Hippo pallida. Also I have not read that the peaked crown is the Hippo feature. And where it is said that Hippo has feint yellow wash ?

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by hannu

Jane, I don't see an indistinct and pale brownish grey lore which is typically to Hippo on the Alsirhan's bird!

Funny - its precisely the presence of pale lores that make me think its a Hippo.

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by hannu

Darrell and 'other Hippo fans' ;-)
I don't see that long bill-look as it should be in Hippo pallida. Also I have not read that the peaked crown is the Hippo feature. And where it is said that Hippo has feint yellow wash ?

We are used to European birds which are the largest billed. South and east of Europe the bill is a great deal smaller according to BWP.

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by hannu

Thanx Alsirhan, that you share very interesting cases to us in the BirdForum !
In this way I can improve my id skills!

I am enjoying the discussion very much like you and trying to see what others can see and add things to my observation to enhance my identification skills.

Originally Posted by hannu

Alsirhan,
do you have any photo where the tail of bird was better on view ?
I'll try really to clear up this 'mystery', so it helps, if we can rule out Hippo or Acro-species definitely and conclusively?

I am sorry I don't! I took 11 photos of the bird within 50 seconds (this is shown on my digital camera EXIF file) non of them show better view than the 4th picture, other photos are similar with head turned to right or left.

Here are some more. #8 and #3 show the inner rectrices longer that ouer ones!
I have only 3 photos left that don't show much.

Alsirhan.

[Amsel]

As already mentioned before: Look at the undertail coverts - they seem to cover about 2/3 of the undertail! A feature never seen in Hippolais warblers...

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by Amsel

As already mentioned before: Look at the undertail coverts - they seem to cover about 2/3 of the undertail! A feature never seen in Hippolais warblers...

They don't look any longer than this one Amsel - which is a Greek eastern Olly - in an Olive tree!

A further negative for and acro is the absence of a dark eye-stripe.

The most compelling feature for me though is the shape of the bill. The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) compared to an Acro -

[Ghostly Vision]

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Now my counting abilities are in question! I now see only 7 exposed primaries beyond the tertials, which are indeed quite worn.

In your photo's Jane, the Olivaceous all show 6 exposed primaries. The broken outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics, too.

I'm swinging back in your direction of it possibly being an Olivaceous.

I am looking today on my PC monitor, which is much better quality than my laptop one - and the bird looks much more like a hippo.

GV

[Jane Turner]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm......

Now my counting abilities are in question! I now see only 7 exposed primaries beyond the tertials, which ar eindeed quite worn.

In your photo's Jane, the Olivaceous all show 6 exposed primaries. The broken outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics, too.

I'm swinging back in your direction of it possibly being an Olivaceous.

I am looking today on my PC monitor, which is much better quality than my laptop one - and the bird looks much more like a hippo.

GV

I can't find pics of the S Eastern races - which are allegegly longer-winged and shown as having 7 pps in BWP (if you trust the illustrations)

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

I can't find pics of the S Eastern races - which are allegegly longer-winged and shown as having 7 pps in BWP (if you trust the illustrations)

In that case - I'm convinced on Eastern Olivaceous

GV