[Edward woodwood]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

In that case - I'm convinced on Eadtern Olivaceous

GV

yep

always was too Sean

Tim

[Edward woodwood]

btw hasn't DNA work shown olly to be Acro rather than Hippo?

[Darrell Clegg]

Here are some photos of the Eastern Olivaceous that turned up at Portland (UK) in 2003
http://www.portlandbirdobs.btinterne...ler_310803.htm

Darrell

[hannu]

This case has been very educative ! I did not see those features which some of you clearly saw ! But new attached photos (6, 7 & 8) due to me thinking that bird is Hippo.

There has been 3 things which has confused me in this case since beginning and which does not confirm my attitude (that bird is Marsh W) :

1) bird has much greyish colour/tinge in the plumage (not so typical to Marsh),

2) the shape of bill (side profile is like a some kind of dagger, thought it seems to be quite stout in certain views, except new photos 6, 7 and 8)

3) And possibly that tertials overdraw so much those secondaries !

I agree now with Jane and she's attention "The most compelling feature:The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) " This is really true !

Also in some Hippo photos Darrel mentioned 'peaked crown' indeed is in evidence.

When I fixed (sharpened) the photo in my photo program, I think that inner tail feathers are shorter or same lenght as the outer tfs, so this refer also to Hippo.
Marsh W's rounding of tail is possible to see in the closed tail, thought in this case bird's outer tf is broken.
Regarding white edge of outer tail feather, probably this feature is possible to see in the photo 4, where we can see that the feather is broken.

These new photos clearly shows us that bird's head is very uniform, grey and there is no contrast (probably this peaked crown causes shades to the head and that's why I supposed that the head is more brown than grey.

In addition to it's very difficult to say about the emarginations, where these species differ remarkably.

I'm convinced that bird is really Hippo.

[hannu]

Hippo-species have also the rictal bristles, but Hippo's ones are mainly straight, whereas Acro's ones are curved.

One more id tip between these species:
Also Hippo-species have mainly darker eyes than Acro-species in adult birds !

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

I can't find pics of the S Eastern races - which are allegegly longer-winged and shown as having 7 pps in BWP (if you trust the illustrations)

Here is one, which shows as having 7 pps:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Tenov...wait_09_05.jpg

[hannu]

Eastern Olivaceous Warbler together with a probably fuscus Reed Warbler
Eilat, Israel April 1995
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds...9504_OA_1S.jpg

[Ghostly Vision]

Originally Posted by hannu

Here is one, which shows as having 7 pps:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Tenov...wait_09_05.jpg

...and the tail feather on that bird looks like it is about to break in exactly the same place as the original bird's!! Conclusive evidence!

Thanks for the excellent tips, Hannu. Didn't know that about the straight/curved rictal bristles!

GV

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

...and the tail feather on that bird looks like it is about to break in exactly the same place as the original bird's!! Conclusive evidence!

Thanks for the excellent tips, Hannu. Didn't know that about the straight/curved rictal bristles!

GV

It's also true that eye colour -detail (+rictal bristles),....
Icterina Warbler:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...704Halias2.jpg
Marsh Warbler
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/pirpa...004Laajis1.jpg

In addition to:
Photo 6 & 7 shows us, that lower mandible + yellow colour looks like a 'straw stick' !

[hannu]

In fact 1st, 4th, 6 & 7 photos 'really' shows us, that the tail colour of Alsirhan's bird is not same as in the rump (thus a different colour). Colour does not differ so much between tail and rump in Marsh Warblers.

Alsirhan's bird - summary (# photo number):
Hippolais, because
- very broad bill (The broadness of the bill base) #4, (8)
- mouth yellow of Olivaceous #4
- lower mandible + yellow colour looks like a 'straw stick'
(MW > pale, but at most yellowish) #6, 7, 8
- very pale tertial edges (a hint of a hippolais secondary panel) #2,3,5,7,8
- slightly shorter inner tail feathers than outer tail feathers #4,6
- outer tail feather does appear paler in one of the pics #4
- dark colour of tail #1,2,4,6,7
- greyer upperpart
- The 7 primaries exposed beyond the tertials #2,3,5,8 (variate at least 6-7)
(Marsh W mainly 9, sometimes 8, depending from the wearing of tertials or something else, but this feature is not absolute. When MW has 9 primaries exposed beyond the tertials and tertials overdrawed secondaries, it often means that distance between innermost primary feather and outermost secondary feather is more bigger than lenght of tertials owerdrawing)
- quite dark eye #1,2,3,5,6,7,8
(- the peaked crown # 1,2,3,5,7 (8), this feature should be connect with bird's behaviour (it must study in the field in which situation bird bristle head feathers and on that way we can truly say, does it clear specific species 'ritual' ) )

Svensson has written from EOW in his book:
"Pale sandy-brown above... the rump is tinged ochrous. The underparts are on average more cream-coloured than in Western..." and elsewhere: "..greyer upperparts which are slightly tinged olive when fresh."

So Alsirhan, do you have any comment ?

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by hannu

So Alsirhan, do you have any comment ?

It was very educative discussion I must thank all the people who participated in this discussion specially Jane who insisted that the bird is Olly and Hannu who continued the search and elaborated many identification issues and to the rest, Ghostly Vision, Darrell Clegg, Tim Allwood, Janj, Sumit, Klant, London Birder and Andrew whitehouse.
Finally I must mention one thing that made the bill to appear stout, this was first raised by Klant in post #36 when he mentioned "the bill appears half chopped" and was not further investigated. There seem to be two rounded drops of mud on the upper mandible just in front of the nostril that made the bill appear stout and made identification difficult at least to me.
The attached photo shows the mud drops.

Alsirhan.

[hannu]

Nice to hear that you agree with us, Alsirhan. I mentioned stout bill in message 9.

Jane, when we discussed about the colour of lores, we did not understand probably each other. We maybe have slightly different view on this subject. I and probably main part of finnish birders understand that lores is narrow area between eyes and the base of bill.

I must specify the finnish terms for the head. Probably Finnish terms are more fine than same terms in English ?
If bird have a stripe/spot in front of eye (between eyes and the base of bill), we have term 'lore-stripe/spot' (translated direct from Finnish). If bird have a stripe behind the eye, but not in front of eye, we call this 'eye-back stripe'.
If bird have both of these stripes, we call this eye-stripe( = 'lore-stripe' + 'eye-back stripe'). So I understand that lores does not be a part of supercilium !

Latest Alsirhan's 'whole' photo (#8) shows us that bird has greyish and weak eye-stripe (indeed it appear only from front side of the head.). Also the same thing has written in my bird books. It's true that bird lores seems to be very pale from the side view and this maybe due to both weakness of that eye-stripe and the light conditions and the colour of photo. Because I saw that the bird has not 'clear' eye-stripe, I supposed that bird is Marsh warbler. But I did not regocnize that lost/dissappear of feature is quite common in certain conditions + birds, which colour are quite pale.

But I finally comment my first message about this subject:
"Marsh warbler is very good option, because
1. bird has not rufous in the rump
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
2. at least secondaries has greenish-olive fringes
> In fact it's impossible to say exactly what the colour of secondaries is !, only paler than centre of secondaries and maybe there is a panel
3. short and stout bill. pale lower mandible
> short bill > Hippo's bill variate quite much too .
> stout bill > see previous Alsirhan's message
> pale lower mandible > true, but maybe better and precise to say: yellow lm
4. Thin eyering is creamy
> In fact it's impossible to say exactly from these photos what the colour of eyering is !
5. no rufous in the supercilium
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
6. top of tertials 'overdraw' secondaries
> this is suitable also to Hippo !
7. dark brown tail
> inexact saying "

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi Hannu,

Just to clarify the English nomenclature on the facial features:

Lores - area between bill and eye. So we'd say "dark lores" or pale lores", or maybe even "dark loral stripe".

Eye stripe = (usually) dark line running behind eye along top of ear coverts.

Neither of these form part of the supercilium, which runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe.

A Chiffchaff for example has a pale supercilium and dark loral line and eye stripe.

Hope this helps us all expalin better to each each other.

Thanks again for the extremely useful and clear pointers on these. This thread should go into the BF database somewhere.

GV

[Jane Turner]

It will - next time - its in my local copy and will appear next time I update.

Found this when entering it

**Upcher's Warbler and separation from Eastern Olivaceous and Olive-tree Warblers.

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Ghostly Vision

Hi Hannu,

Just to clarify the English nomenclature on the facial features:

Lores - area between bill and eye. So we'd say "dark lores" or pale lores", or maybe even "dark loral stripe".

Eye stripe = (usually) dark line running behind eye along top of ear coverts.

Neither of these form part of the supercilium, which runs above the lores and continues back over the eye stripe.

A Chiffchaff for example has a pale supercilium and dark loral line and eye stripe.

Hope this helps us all expalin better to each each other.

Thanks again for the extremely useful and clear pointers on these. This thread should go into the BF database somewhere.

GV

Thanks a lot for this clearing. So we have a slightly different view on the eye stripe. Your description about meaning of eye-stripe is suitable to our 'eye-back stripe'. But I must make sure from one specialist, does it right my point of view from Finnish nomenclature.
Yes, that dark loral stripe sounds better than my 'word' ;-)
But the main thing is that all you fellows understand my 'explanations'!

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

Hannu - the outer t/f is broken and the tertials are worn. Despite this there are very pale tertial edges and in the last picture more than a hint of a hippolais secondary panel. The ID of southern and eastern races is hard - they are more sandy, longer-winged and smaller-billed than the birds we are used to in Europe.

Thanks Jane about the BF link of Hippolais-id !

Some data of Hippolais-warblers ( Svensson ):

Species sex wing tail
H. p. elaeica male 64-72 (67,4) 46-56,5 (51,9)
H. p. elaeica female 62-69 (65,5) 46-55 (50,6)

H. opaca male 64,5-74 (70) 52,5-61,5 (59,8)
H. opaca female 63,5-71,5 (68,3) 51-58 (55,1)

H. rama male 59-66 (62,0) 47-57 (52,9)
H. rama female 57-63 (60,2) 49-55,5 (51,6)

H. caligata male 57-65 (61,5) 40-51 (47,3)
H. caligata female 56-63,5 (59,8) 42-49 (46,4)

H. languida ?

Species Bill length (S)
H. p. elaeica 14,1-17,5 (15,9)
H. opaca 16,4-18,9 (17,6)
H. rama 14,1-16,5 (15,1)
H. caligata 12-14,5 (13,4)
H. languida ?

I'll search Upcher's Warbler's data in the evening,...

[Jane Turner]

From BWP

pallida from Egypt similar in colour to opaca or slightly browner grey; distinctly smaller; reiseri and laeneni close in size to pallida, but wing of reiseri slightly longer and bill and tarsus of laeneni shorter. Colour of upperparts rather variable in all these 3 races, due mainly to bleaching and abrasion, and identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year: fresh birds olive or sandy, worn ones duller brown-grey; adult reiseri in fresh plumage slightly paler and less saturated grey on upperparts than in opaca, sandy tinge more pronounced, especially on forehead, crown, and hindneck; juvenile reiseri distinctly paler greyish-buff on upperparts than juvenile opaca; adult laeneni slightly paler and greyer than reiseri or pallida, especially on rump, pale fringes of flight-feathers and upper wing-coverts paler, wing more rounded.

Note this was written before the split into easterns and western olly
Polytypic. H. p. opaca Cabanis, 1851, Iberia and north-west Africa south to Anti-Atlas, Atlas Saharien, Gafsa and Gabès (Tunisia), and northern Tripolitania and Cyrenaica (Libya); reiseri Hilgert, 1908, Sahara of Algeria and Tunisia from Laghouat, Messad, and Biskra south to Ahaggar, and perhaps this race in southern Morocco, Mauritania, and Fezzan (Libya); nominate pallida (Hemprich and Ehrenberg, 1833) Egypt in Nile delta and valley, Suez Canal area, Wadi el-Natrun, Faiyum, and (perhaps this race) desert oases of western Egypt; laeneni Niethammer, 1955, Niger, central and eastern Chad, Nigeria, western Sudan, and (perhaps this race) Tibesti (northern Chad) and Nile valley of Sudan; elaeica (Lindermayer, 1843), South-east Europe and south-west Asia (this race or perhaps nominate pallida in Arabia and possibly in Eritrea and Somalia).

[Edward woodwood]

Originally Posted by hannu

I agree now with Jane and she's attention "The most compelling feature:The mystery bird (right) has a hugely wide base to its bill (like a Hippo) " This is really true !

see post 5

a great feature for Olly

Hannu, Upcher's is mega distinctive in field, black uppertail, constantly waving like a shrike

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

see post 5

a great feature for Olly

Hannu, Upcher's is mega distinctive in field, black uppertail, constantly waving like a shrike

Tim !
Sorry, I did not understand or react you comment in post 5!
In my mind, it's really difficult to say from first 3 pics, does the base of bill really wide or not ? But you have possible better and more sharp eyes !

[hannu]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

From BWP

pallida from Egypt similar in colour to opaca or slightly browner grey; distinctly smaller; reiseri and laeneni close in size to pallida, but wing of reiseri slightly longer and bill and tarsus of laeneni shorter. Colour of upperparts rather variable in all these 3 races, due mainly to bleaching and abrasion, and identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year: fresh birds olive or sandy, worn ones duller brown-grey; adult reiseri in fresh plumage slightly paler and less saturated grey on upperparts than in opaca, sandy tinge more pronounced, especially on forehead, crown, and hindneck; juvenile reiseri distinctly paler greyish-buff on upperparts than juvenile opaca; adult laeneni slightly paler and greyer than reiseri or pallida, especially on rump, pale fringes of flight-feathers and upper wing-coverts paler, wing more rounded.

Note this was written before the split into easterns and western olly
Polytypic. H. p. opaca Cabanis, 1851, Iberia and north-west Africa south to Anti-Atlas, Atlas Saharien, Gafsa and Gabès (Tunisia), and northern Tripolitania and Cyrenaica (Libya); reiseri Hilgert, 1908, Sahara of Algeria and Tunisia from Laghouat, Messad, and Biskra south to Ahaggar, and perhaps this race in southern Morocco, Mauritania, and Fezzan (Libya); nominate pallida (Hemprich and Ehrenberg, 1833) Egypt in Nile delta and valley, Suez Canal area, Wadi el-Natrun, Faiyum, and (perhaps this race) desert oases of western Egypt; laeneni Niethammer, 1955, Niger, central and eastern Chad, Nigeria, western Sudan, and (perhaps this race) Tibesti (northern Chad) and Nile valley of Sudan; elaeica (Lindermayer, 1843), South-east Europe and south-west Asia (this race or perhaps nominate pallida in Arabia and possibly in Eritrea and Somalia).

I underline this statement: "identification by colour possible only when birds compared are of same age and from same time of year".

Because these differences are so 'characterless', this identification of subspecies needs always capture of the bird. Only measurements can possibly confirm id. I have always wondered these ssp-descriptions and also ssp-clarification in certain species. Does it really known how big are really the interior variation of these subspecies? I mean that we can classify more ssp
than it's neccessary to authentic identification of ssp. In my mind, it's better to talk about different breeding populations (western/eastern), even the meaning of these terms are quite identical.

H. languida (Upcher's W) wing 72-81,5, bill (S) 16,0 - 21,8

H.p. elaeica have quite short bill [14,1-17,5 (15,9)], if we compare it to Upcher's W!

[hannu]

More Olly pics (9pics) from Norway, (same bird mentioned in post 37)

http://home.online.no/~kjetaso/bleksanger.html

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by hannu

More Olly pics (9pics) from Norway, (same bird mentioned in post 37)

http://home.online.no/~kjetaso/bleksanger.html

Hannu ....I think these pics are for the Western Olivaceous Warbler H. opaca . . . longer bill as opposed to shorter bill of Eastern OW. H. pallida.
Here are some photos taken in Kuwait August Sept. 2005 for birds I identify as Eastern OW. H. pallida. (#9, #10 & #13) they have short and thin bill.

[alsirhan]

To compare with Upcher's Warbler I include the following:

#11 the one in foreground is olly, in the background is Upcher's W. note the different bill shapes Upcher's has stronger and longer bill. Olive-tree W. was (ruled out due to shorter PP.)

#12 is another one similar to #11 but with bills open.

#14 is for typical Upcher's W. in Kuwait with long tail big head.

Alsirhan.

[hannu]

Thanx Alsirhan !

Few pics from Spain:
Western Olivaceous Warbler - (Hippolais opaca)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds...05May22_03.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds...05May22_02.jpg
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures/birds...05May22_01.jpg

First of all, we have to check in which areas these two subspecies really wintering !
This give us possible to estimate, does it possible to meet WOW in your area.
I have that kind of 'touch' that WOW wintering in NW-W part of Africa ??

Secondly, we have to remember that measurements variate quite much within subspecies (between both sexes and age) .

Thirdly, the colour of 1st winter (juvenile) / adult birds can be slightly different in autumn (Often young birds are warmer colour). Also some variation of colour can appear between different populations (?).

First I have to study a little bit more about the ssp id.
(JANJ, I counted to ten ;-) )

I have not field experience both of these Hippolais subspecies, but if I will travel to Israel in next April, I hope that I'll see at least EOW.

If we compare measurements of 3 species (Blyth's RW, Marsh W and Eastern Olivaceous W), the longest wing is Marsh W (68-76mm), the second EOW (62-71mm) and shortest Blyth's (58-65mm). Both EOW (15,0-17,4mm) and Blyth's (15,3-17,6) seems to be longest bill and Marsh W have slightly shortest (14,3-17,2). Wing formula is quite similar both EOW and Blyth's. There is also other differences, e.g the lenght of 1P and the amount of primaries, where are notches and emarginations.

[hannu]

In the follow pdf-document you will find two pics, which shows us the differences of heads between H.opaca and H.pallida reiseri (side views and top views).

http://blx1.bto.org/pdf/ringmigration/22_3/salewski.pdf