[hannu]

Alsirhan, so you change on your first suggestion (Olly) to European Reed !
I think that you are right! Very grey Reed indeed, but obviously adult bird !
I'll post if I'll change my opinion.
I have to estimate again also your bird, labelled as Eastern Olly in post 11!
When those latest bird pics were taken?
Reed Warbler looks juvenile fresh bird.

[alsirhan]

Hi Hannu,

The Reed was photographed on 8th July 2007 at Jahra East Outfall they were breeding in large numbers, along with small number of Basras, adults Reed were moulting heavily head neck and breast and were feeding thier young.
The Eastern Olivaceous Warbler was an old picture dated 7 Sep. 2005
Below is the photograph of Reed warbler #16, a Marsh #17 and Basra or Reed? #15 dates are implied in Photo's name.

Alsirhan

[hannu]

I can only say that the 1st bird in latest pic is juvenile acro, possibly Reed, as you suggested. The 2nd is Marsh indeed. The 3rd looks like Reed to me.

I don't know why I have a feel that your Olly in post 11 looks like Icterina Warbler to me... e.g. tail colour is very dark in your bird

[hannu]

Alsirhan, compare these two different birds to each other:
post # 11 one pic vs post # 72 three pics (9,10,13), which is labeled as Eastern Olivaceous Warbler. They have e.g. rather different greater coverts, the distance between tertial tips, the colour of tail.
Although the colour of tail can due to the freshness of the feathers in the first bird (post 11). Also at least one primary feather is growing in the same bird (moulting time). But the colour of tail shouldn't vary obviously so much in Eastern Olly? Your pics are rather tricky, which demands a lot of careful study.

[hannu]

I have to add that bird has too long tail for being Icterina Warbler in post #11. Compare to the Icterina Warbler in follow link:
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/Soili...L9226korj3.jpg
Then it's possible that tail can appear sometimes so dark in Eastern Olly in some pics? Probably due to combination of fresh tail feathers, ligth and position? I have to continue study ...

[alsirhan]

Hi Hannu,

These eastren Olivaceous Warblers have short primay projection as well. I think all these birds are Eastern Olivaceous Warbers with different molting stages.

Alsirhan

[KM1]

Hi Alsirhan and Hannu,

Great photographs and interesting analysis. My only comment here is to question the age of the heavily moulting Acro in the first photo, post #102, above. Surely this is an adult undergoing the post-breeding body moult?

Regards,

Killian Mullarney

[alsirhan]

Hi Killian and Hannu,

Yes I thought it was an adlut. A juvenile wouldn't have a worn primaries and tail feathers! I think it is a Reed, the only breeding acros at that breading site are Reed, Basra, Great and Clamorous and a number of them are currently at head and throat molting stage. The third bird #15 could be a Basra because of the white at and above the lore, slightly longish bill.

Alsirhan

[hannu]

Thanks Killian, I have to admit that I have not experience on this kind of moulted birds and also I have not seen photos from this kind of Acros. Juvenile bird was the first option, which came to my mind. But you are right! Such full size bird in that moulting stage cannot be juvenile bird and also e.g. the wear of the primary tips support that age identification?

Regarding to the Reed/Basra Reed complex (?), I admit that the bill of the bird ( Pic in the "Is the European Reed?" thread, post 92 and this thread post 102 3rd pic) looks very longish. But the length of the bill is perhaps the only clear feature, which match in the Basra in this photo. But maybe you have noticed that the plain corner of the mouth highlight this impression. As I said earlier, that longish bill match at least to some extent also to Reeds.
The reason, why I think that both of the birds are Reeds, is that I can not see any other features, which we can clearly connect only with Basra e.g. dark eyestripe, distinct and clear white supercilium, etc. But I'll continue my thinking on these cases!
See Basra Reed pics from follow links! Also see two pics from the Netfugl Gallery yet.
http://www.surfbirds.com/media/galle...0712020852.jpg
http://www.birdlife.org/images/sized...arbler.jpg.jpg

[hannu]

Also the lower mandible of Basra Reed should be obviously dark appr. in 1/3 part, as it's visible in my former posted pics in those mentioned links. I don't see that kind of dark tip in the lower mandible in the pic ("Is the European Reed?" thread, post 92)! I think that there are some dirt in the tip of lower mandible? There seems to be perhaps some feather loss between forehead and bill (worn)?

[hannu]

One character more: the longest tertial (this feature is taken from the pics) is obviously longer than secondaries in Basra Reed Warbler ie the species reminds Marsh Warbler in this character. The longest tertial of European Reed Warbler is not longer than secondaries, usually beyond the tip of secondaries as your bird in post 102 in this thread and post 92 in the "Is the European Reed?" thread.

See more pics of Basra Reed (notice e.g. head pattern (e.g. eye stripe), the colour of lower mandible, the length of longest tertial):

http://www.israbirding.com/reports/r..._warbler_2007/

http://www.israbirding.com/reports/r...lers_breeding/

[hannu]

Alsirhan,
you can see my ringed Reed Warbler,
which has rather longish bill in the attached pic!

[alsirhan]

Thanks for the links and the photograph.So these birds with longish bill can not be a Basra at moment for certain.

Alsirhan

[hannu]

yep, as far as I know
(and it's often so limited) !

[hannu]

Alsirhan,
I'd like to discuss something about the age of those Eastern Olivaceous Warblers.
So here is my first suggestion:

post # 11
partly moulted adult

post # 72
pic (9) first winter (juvenile)
pic (10) worn adult
pic (13): worn adult

post # 100
first winter (juvenile), similar as the post #72 pic (9)

-h-

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by hannu

Alsirhan,
I'd like to discuss something about the age of those Eastern Olivaceous Warblers.
So here is my first suggestion:

post # 11
partly moulted adult

post # 72
pic (9) first winter (juvenile)
pic (10) worn adult
pic (13): worn adult

post # 100
first winter (juvenile), similar as the post #72 pic (9)

-h-

Hi,

Actually pic (9) in post #72 is the same bird and same photo as in post #100.
Is it a juvenile because of its fresh plumage?

Alsirhan

[hannu]

Originally Posted by alsirhan

Hi,

Actually pic (9) in post #72 is the same bird and same photo as in post #100.
Is it a juvenile because of its fresh plumage?

Alsirhan

That's only one reason....
there seems to be some other differences
e.g. different coloured edges of secondaries.

[hannu]

Alsirhan,

I noticed that this juvenile Eastern Olly has obviously a pale (brown) alula (or at least pale outer web). [I suppose that my age identification is correct?]

I have read both Svensson's Hippolais articles (2001, 2003) and both Hippolais articles from Alula bird magazine (1/2006, 4/2006). I found perhaps some reference to this pale (brown, or same coloured as mantle) alula in juvenile Sykes's from Alula articles, but I did not find any clear reference to this detail in Svensson's articles. Also juv Booted seems to have darker alula, which contrast e.g. both mantle and wing coverts in photos (Alula).

It's also rather clear that adult Hippolais species have darker alula, which contrast to the upperparts.
So does the pale alula be one of the juvenile character
both Sykes's and Eastern Olly?

[alsirhan]

Originally Posted by alsirhan

I agree with you here and want to add this:

The birds in post 73:
pic #11 Upcher's Warbler in background, Eurasian Reed Warbler in foreground.

pic #12 Upcher's Warbler in background, Eurasian Reed Warbler in foreground.


Alsirhan.

Hi Hannu,

I have now changed my mind about the foreground bird in post 73, pic. #11 and pic. #12 I think it is a Marsh Warbler look at the colour of the legs and length of longest tertial compared with secondaries, paler lower mandible and darker primaries. I attach more pictures of the bird below, all were photographed on 1 August 2005.

Alsirhan

[hannu]

post 73, pic. #11 and pic. #12, post 119

Your change of mind is interesting.

I have to admit that these pics can easily lead us to wrong conclusion, but I have still feel that they are Reeds!

- the colour of the legs:
> the legs (tarsus) looks indeed paler than perhaps on the average in Reed, but in the same time they are not so paler that we can use them a clear reference to the Marsh. [We should use this feature in the situation, where the colour of photo is almost natural. The feature clearly refers either species, when we have an extreme individuals. I must also mention that the use of this feature in the field demand us often rather good experience.]

- length of longest tertial compared with secondaries:
> The longest tertial is in the same line as 6S, thus tertial is not longer than some of other outer secondaries (1-6S). Tertial is also clearly shorter than 10P, which match well Reed.

- paler lower mandible
> match well also Reed!

- darker primaries
> In my mind, the level of colour in primaries is sligthly paler than or similar as Upcher's ones! The colour of primary centres appears to be more brown (compare to Upcher's ones, which are clearly more greyish) than blackish, which does not match well for Marsh. I have a view that this bird should be perhaps sligthly darker primary centres than Upcher's and more contrast to the mantle. But I say this sligthly prejudiced, because I have not experience from Upcher's, so I don't know what is the reality in Upcher's. Also the fringes of wing feathers are perhaps more rufous /pale brownish than yellowish tinged.

In addition to I admit that the length of bill looks rather short,
but it's possible to meet rather short billed Reeds too.