Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 9 votes, 5.00 average.
Old Monday 21st November 2005, 18:20   #1
Goudvink
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Netherlands, Rotterdam
Posts: 13
Redpoll ID

This "redpoll" was photographed on 19-11-2005 in The Netherlands. The pictures are taken bij mij brother.

Can anybody help us with the ID of this bird?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll1.jpg
Views:	569
Size:	81.0 KB
ID:	34513  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll2.jpg
Views:	411
Size:	100.1 KB
ID:	34514  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll3.jpg
Views:	496
Size:	85.1 KB
ID:	34515  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll4.jpg
Views:	466
Size:	71.4 KB
ID:	34516  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll5.jpg
Views:	463
Size:	62.2 KB
ID:	34517  

Goudvink is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st November 2005, 19:59   #2
Fair Islander
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 146
Hi Goudvink,

I'm always careful about evaluating features from photographs on 'tricky' groups such as redpolls, but seeing as no-one else has replied to your post, I'll give you my opinion, based on what I can see here.

I'm pretty confident that the bird is an Arctic Redpoll, (exilipes), although not so sure about the second bird in picture 4 (not much to go on). In brief, the reasons why I think it's an Arctic:

Obviously, the rump appears unstreaked. One of the photographs shows the rump quite well and I can't see any signs of any streaks/peppering here. Thats a good starting point!. Secondly, the undertail coverts appear to be unstreaked and very clean (cleaner than some arctics I have seen). The flank streaking is very light and pretty indiscriminate. Mealy Redpoll often shows quite heavy streaks (although this can be a rather dodgy feature, depending on how the feathers are arranged). Other back-up features, which also point to Arctic is the rather shaggy like 'trousers' and the overall cold ground colour and mantle streaks. It just 'feels' good for one.

The one feature I don't like is the bill size, but this can vary enormously between individual birds, and is also difficult to judge on photographs.

Overall, the evidence strongly points to an Arctic Redpoll. I'm lucky in that I see lots of redpolls here in the Northern Isles (including Greenland/Iceland/North-western) and I've trapped quite a few this autumn (including an Arctic). They are not at all easy though (contrary to some beliefs). Hope this helps. Cheers, Paul
Fair Islander is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Monday 21st November 2005, 20:04   #3
J Jones
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,168
Agreed with Paul here - looks like exilipes Arctic Redpolls to me. I presume the second bird shown in picture 4 is a Mealy Redpoll (Carduelis flammea). Thats what it looks like anyway.
J Jones is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 19:11   #4
The Barn Owl
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: .
Posts: 448
Sorry - I just want to get this straight:
Lesser Redpoll is the most common species in Britain and carduelis flammea cabaret?
Mealy Redpoll is carduelis flammea flammea?
Arctic Redpoll is carduelis hornemanni?
Cheers!
The Barn Owl is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 19:22   #5
robinm
Registered User
 
robinm's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kent, England
Posts: 19,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptors Rule
Sorry - I just want to get this straight:
Lesser Redpoll is the most common species in Britain and carduelis flammea cabaret?
Mealy Redpoll is carduelis flammea flammea?
Arctic Redpoll is carduelis hornemanni?
Cheers!
According to the Official British List from the BOU:

Lesser Redpoll Carduelis cabaret
Common Redpoll Carduelis flammea
Arctic Redpoll Carduelis hornemanni

The BOU website is here
robinm is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 20:35   #6
J Jones
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,168
Further to this, the UK400 club lists redpolls as the following:

Mealy Redpoll, carduelis flammea
Greenland Redpoll, carduelis rostrata
Lesser Redpoll, carduelis cabaret
Hornemann's Arctic Redpoll, carduelis hornemanni
Scandinavian Arctic Redpoll, carduelis exilipes
J Jones is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 20:36   #7
Edward woodwood
Member

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,309
expect some lumping pretty soon....

Tim
Edward woodwood is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 20:40   #8
London Birder
Registered User
 
London Birder's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London
Posts: 3,335
Mealy and Common are one and the same C. flammea which then breaks down into races
__________________
D. McKenzie.
London Birder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 21:13   #9
J Jones
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,168
You really think the BOU will go back on it's splitting?
J Jones is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Wednesday 23rd November 2005, 21:16   #10
dan pointon
Can't Stop

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Staffs
Posts: 3,890
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrexile1
You really think the BOU will go back on it's splitting?
I've also heard this through some Chinese Whispers......
dan pointon is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 24th November 2005, 07:54   #11
The Barn Owl
Registered User

 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: .
Posts: 448
Thanx for your help everyone - that's cleared it up now!
Cheers!
The Barn Owl is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Thursday 24th November 2005, 17:04   #12
J Jones
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: London
Posts: 2,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by dwayne950
I've also heard this through some Chinese Whispers......
Haven't we all Dan... but will the BOU have the balls to go back on it?!
J Jones is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 10:29   #13
Goudvink
Registered User

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Netherlands, Rotterdam
Posts: 13
Thank you very much for the answers about the ID of the "Redopll" so far.

The main discussion in The Netherlands is why this bird is not just a pale
example of a Mealy Redpoll (Flammea). Some critical people has the opinion
that this bird is not an Arctic redpoll because:

- The mantle is too dark (lacks the whitish base colour).
- Flanks too heavy streaked.
- The bill is too large.
- Eear-coverts too dark.
- White supercilium not reaching above the bill.
- and especially the bird lacks the well known "jizz" of an Arctic Redpoll
(not like an "frosty snowball", neckless, bulky, fluffy, etc.).

Some people think that all the features shown by this bird are possible for
Mealy Redpoll. Is this right?

I have attached some other pictures of the same bird, and I would be very
thankful if you give us your opinion about this bird.

With kind regards,


Willem van Rijswijk
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll6.JPG
Views:	440
Size:	93.1 KB
ID:	34694  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll7.JPG
Views:	271
Size:	42.8 KB
ID:	34695  Click image for larger version

Name:	redpoll8.JPG
Views:	295
Size:	80.3 KB
ID:	34696  
Goudvink is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 10:37   #14
dbradnum
Registered User
 
dbradnum's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Epping Forest, NE London
Posts: 3,081
Interesting - I wouldn't like to stick my neck out either way. Initial reaction based on general colouration, structure and jizz is of Mealy, for me...

... but then there's a big unmarked white rump, and the undertail coverts appear entirely unstreaked (though only based on the fifth photo) - I thought this latter feature was pretty much diagnostic for Arctic? (OK, I know features can't be "pretty much diagnostic" )

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that this is in fact a Mealy.... and that a whole load of Arctic records are no longer verifiable.
__________________

David

(Visit my blog!)
dbradnum is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2006 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 25th November 2005, 10:49   #15
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
I think so too, that bird is Mealy Redpoll,
in addition to the basic colour of head is wrong to Arctic,..
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/kunsa...5_DSC_8678.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/kunsa...2_DSC_8684.jpg

Last edited by hannu : Friday 25th November 2005 at 10:54.
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 11:02   #16
Edward woodwood
Member

 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 11,309
I can't do thst bird and lord knows i've done my reading and fieldwork with the species

if they ain't classics they can be impossible

lump em

Tim
Edward woodwood is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 11:14   #17
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
Also upper tail coverts (not rump) seems to be quite heavy streaked (pic 2 & 6) !

Last edited by hannu : Friday 25th November 2005 at 11:20.
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 11:29   #18
Fair Islander
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 146
Wink

Willem,

I received your email, thanks, but thought better to reply in public, ok?

Some interesting points are raised above. Looking at the additional photos you have posted, I still think the bird is an Arctic. Yes, I accept that 'pale' Common Redpoll is a problem, and yes, some of the features shown by Arctic Redpoll and Common Redpoll overlap BUT based on the percentage of features, your bird shows them all. If it only showed a selection of the features for an Arctic, then I would certainly be 'on the fence' but I think that if a bird shows ALL the features then you have to say it is one or at least has a very good chance of being a pukka Arctic.

Here, on Fair Isle, this autumn we have had lots of big/small/dark/pale/white/brown redpolls (and all other combination in between) and it is a very brave man who tries and puts a name to them all, unless they are trapped of course, when biometics can certainly help. Of all the redpolls that I have trapped and seen in the hand, I have yet to see a Mealy that shows clean undertail coverts and a white rump....I may have just been (un)lucky

cheers, Paul
Fair Islander is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 11:47   #19
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
Does it some differences between the size of throat patch between these species ?

How well is known this hybrilization of this two species:
e.g.
Carduelis hornemanni exilipes X Carduelis flammea flammea
Carduelis h. hornemanni X Carduelis f. rostrata
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 12:09   #20
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
Latest pics shows us that bird has quite long throat patch. The size of throat patch variates much and I found one Arctic, which has nearly same size throat patch as this case ....
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/karai...11102004_1.jpg
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 12:15   #21
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
Ear-coverts can look darker in some Arctic individuals
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/masa/Carhor11.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/komi/...2_001_0747.jpg
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 12:28   #22
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
This bird's stripe in the greater wing coverts becomes quite quickly narrower ( from inside to outside ), so it might indicate to Mealy too.

Last edited by hannu : Friday 25th November 2005 at 12:52.
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 12:29   #23
Docmartin
Thought Police
 
Docmartin's Avatar

 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 961
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrexile1
Haven't we all Dan...
Everyone except me, apparently.
__________________
George Bristow's Secret Freezer
Opinions expressed in my blog are not necessarily shared by anyone
Docmartin is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 14:20   #24
Fair Islander
Registered User

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannu
This bird's stripe in the greater wing coverts becomes quite quickly narrower ( from inside to outside ), so it might indicate to Mealy too.
or it may indicate old outer greater coverts, which are notoriously difficult to see in the hand on a redpoll, never mind in the field.

Paul
Fair Islander is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 25th November 2005, 15:42   #25
London Birder
Registered User
 
London Birder's Avatar

 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: London
Posts: 3,335
if I'd found this I would've been inclined to call it a Mealy (at least at first) based on colour and 'feel' ... clearly not a cabaret and not shouting Arctic, but then I'd get views revealing the unmarked white rump and ut covs and all would be thrown into utter bleedin confusion; for me (possibly only me) it lacks that sort of squat, 'mongolian-faced' look and elements of frostiness-ness in it's plumage I'd expect on Arctic (rightly or wrongly) but what with all the overlap etc I'd be calling in the cavalry ...

edit: and a bloke with a mist-net
__________________
D. McKenzie.

Last edited by London Birder : Friday 25th November 2005 at 15:44.
London Birder is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Redpoll - Lesser?? Ruby Bird Identification Q&A 3 Saturday 19th November 2005 16:59
Redpoll confusion!!! SeanKP Bird Identification Q&A 29 Wednesday 16th November 2005 15:43
Redpoll question jimbob Bird Taxonomy and Nomenclature 13 Wednesday 30th March 2005 22:50
Mealy Redpoll = Lesser Redpoll RockyRacoon Lists 14 Friday 28th May 2004 15:18
Redpoll ? nirofo Bird Identification Q&A 3 Thursday 29th January 2004 23:41

{googleads}
£100 Cashback on Opticron DBA VHD Binoculars. Click to find out more.

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.24022198 seconds with 35 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 21:30.