[deborah4]

See front page of UK Independent today on proposal to initiate consultation on a Badger Cull re: bovine TB

For background info to consultation see:
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/tb/culling/

What are the underlying issues here?

Do farmers OWN the countryside?
Bovine TB? Should badgers be 'blamed'?
Mis-management of countryside?
Intensive farming methods?
Political?
Economic?

What do you think?

[PJSS]

Well I'm distinctly unhappy about a survey that calls for the extermination of badgers in some areas in order to see if there is a link between bovine TB and badgers.

[Johnny1]

I remember watching a news item of badgers being gassed in their setts at least 20 years ago to eradicate the T.B. Obviously it didn't work as the cattle have continued to be infected with T.B. Maybe it's the cattle that are infecting the badgers?

[Forest Knights]

The slaughter of Badgers in whole areas of the Uk must be resisted. Why can't cattle be vaccinated. There is too little scientific evidence to support such a cull. this is a purely economic action with little to do with animal welfare or conservation.

i have little faith in a government consultation.

How can the UK governement argue against rainforest deforestation then depopulate whole regions of the country's badgers.

[Keith Reeder]

Badger culling to "fight" bovine TB has been going on for years, you know (I don't think you can innoculate for TB).

The problem is, recent research has indicated that the current (relatively low, apparently) level of extermination just results in the badgers in a targetted area getting the hell out.

They aren't daft...

If they carry TB, they spread it further afield because their home area is being targetted.

So the latest talk is around increasing extermination rates, in order to eliminate this situation (the link above might mention this, but the DEFRA site is down as I write this).

[deborah4]

Originally Posted by Keith Reeder

.. So the latest talk is around increasing extermination rates, in order to eliminate this situation (the link above might mention this, but the DEFRA site is down as I write this).

It's back on Keith (direct link at top of thread)

[abagguley]

Originally Posted by Forest Knights

Why can't cattle be vaccinated.

I was wondering that. Perhaps Keith's right, and it can't be done, but you can certainly vaccinate humans for it, and I seem to remember a few years back (97-8ish), the Irish government were putting food out for badgers which contained TB vaccine, to see if it had any effect on bovine TB. I never heard about the results of that trial, though.

Adrian

[Mick East]

I thought Deer also carried TB, when there was a deer farm nearby, people were aware that TB could possibily turn up in the stock from the wild deer.

As for farmers in the EU, never before has so few, told so many what to do!

Mick

[London Birder]

DEFRA news release of Dec 15th here >

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2005/051215a.htm


that's a heck of a rate of Bovine TB growth !

[Ranger James]

The Krebs experiment which has been hobbling along for the last 10 years or so has not managed to create any viable scientific data as the real world is very hard to create laboratory conditions within.
Hopefully the lack of knowledge about the countryside and how it works from our political leaders will be thier downfall and the total and utter impossibility to undertake a total cull will materialse after many millions of pounds of public money has been thrown mindlessly at the problem.
Rather than investing this money on the real problem, which is of course cattle.
No one ever seems to suggest that it might actually be the climatic conditions that create the ideal environment for the baterium to flourish. A bacterium which is able to infect a species with a UK population numbering in the 100s of thousands with a small, localised movement, and another species with a UK population of many millions with the ability to be at different ends of the country in a matter of hours.
"You do the math" as the Americans say.
Geographically all TB hotspots are in the wet west, with long damp warm grassland, ideal for bacterial longevity. Here's a thought - perhjaps its the ground that harbours the infection, not the badgers?!?!
Yes, badgers also can pick up the TB infection, but logic screams that it is the huge cattle movements, inacurate detection methods and arcane infection policy that are at fault. My heart goes out to a farm with TB, as it is a final nail in a very overly-nailed coffin for most of them. But why is it the policy to slaughter the heard and pay compensation? Why is no-one prepared to question the system?
I remember when foot and mouth broke in devon, the same Political agencies suggested a total cull of all wildlife on Dartmoor. I wouldn't loose any sleep over an extermination of the Uk badger population just yet, with policies like these floating about, its just a shame that these people have such a lack of knoweldge of UK ecology.
Its an economic problem, killing badgers will not resolve this problem. That means thinking differently, but this is hard to do with the NFU lobbying thier single-minded misguided invectetive so vociferously.
Phew! rant over, sorry folks.
Jim

[Ranger James]

Here's a UK distribution map of Bovine TB incidents in 2002.
Badgers are endemic to vitually all of the UK. Cattle can be found all over the UK too.
So why are bTB outbreaks concentrated in this fashion? Climate.
James

[abagguley]

Originally Posted by Ranger James

So why are bTB outbreaks concentrated in this fashion? Climate.
James

Then the answer's simple: Don't kill badgers, kill the climate.

Oh, wait, we're already doing that...


Adrian

[Keith Reeder]

Incidentally, I'd forgot all about the BCG injection when I said I thought that TB couldn't be innoculated for, and a quick Google suggests that Bovine TB can indeed be addressed in this way.

However, I found this on another forum discussing the issue - explains why we don't innoculate (money again)...

Because then the livestock has antibodies that say it has been exposed to the disease, we lose disease exhempt status, and no one imports our meat. Besides, when you're looking to inoculate against foot and mouth, immunity doesn't last long enough to do it as a matter of course, and it takes too long for the innoculation to take effect to really stop an infection spreading.

The quote mentions F&M, but the argument is the same for Bovine TB, and the point was made in that context.

It's followed up with:

You can [vaccinate/innoculate]. Then the herd loses immune status, it becomes impossible to screen for animals that actually have the condition because they all test positive, and no one imports our beef. Besides, the immunity offered by such a vaccine isn't absolute, so if this beef is intended for human consumption you've still got problems. No win situation...

[Ranger James]

Exactly - just as the foot and mouth outmoded fandango that in the end only costs you and me tax payer - the only reason the disease is not vaccinated against is becuase the national heard will loose disease free status.
Imagine if that policy was pursued for human beings!
It is a perverse situation that is ignored becuase it seldom rears its ugly head and when it does none of teh ministers or even the (supposed) gvmt agency experts have a clue what to do.
How much beef do we export? Lots. How much beef do we import? More.
Buy British we're told, and then we panda to Tescos et al. and let them sell Brazilian beef. I remember last summer being in Minehead tescos, surrounded by prime Beef production land, and the only piece of cow you could buy has been flown half way round the world.
Somewhere along the line we have gone very wrong. Whats worse is that we seem incapable of correcting those mistakes as those who make the descisions directly profit from them. Who loses?
Jim

[London Birder]

hi James, I found your climate>TB link very interesting...do you know if there's been any research into this?

[adehinch]

As said above, when will certain farmers realise that their lack of attention to cleanliness, intensive farming techniques, and unrestricted cattle movement time after time bites them in their ass?!

badgers are not the only mammal that can carry tb, deer as well as stoat can. Badgers are very territorial so if a cull was introduced, it has been indicated by the krebs trial that this will only advance a spread.

At the end of the day it all revolves around money, money to tag and monitor cattle movement, money to vaccinate and money to adequately look after the cattle. how much money will they spend on humanely killing the badger ? the people who carried out the culls in the trial have already been told they are loosing their jobs next year so it will be down to the farmers. will they use humane methods ? More like the horrific indisriminant snare will be used, poison or gas. its cheaper!

Bring in stricter cattle movement laws and better upkeep. wildlife crime seems to be increasing, shame the funding to prevent this wasn't.

[cornwallbadgers]

How refreshing to see this issue being discussed on this forum.

I am trying to encourage public participation in the consultation TO OBJECT to killing our wildlife.

Perhaps some of you may like to join in!

Reproduced below is a message that I've been sending out - do please respond - and pass on the message to anyone you tink maywant to save the badgers.

thanks

Roger


message text:

Countdown to extinction?

On 15th December 2005 the British Government announced a twelve week
'public consultation period' to consider whether and how to kill badgers.

Many people consider that this consultation is a sham to soften our
response to what has already been decided - a mass slaughter of a
‘protected’ native wildlife species.

Leading organisations including the RSPCA and the Wildlife Trusts
have already voiced their opposition, but only a massive public response
can prevent the killing.

Just a few moments of your time can make a difference

Please visit www.stopthecull.info for more information.

It would also be helpful if you would encourage everyone you know to
support the badgers at this critical time. Please forward this e-mail to
anyone who may care enough to help.

On behalf of Britain's badgers - thank youwww.stopthecull.info

[cornwallbadgers]

so if this beef is intended for human consumption you've still got problems.


Well - er - no actually
bTB infected carcasses do enter the human food chain - DEFRA sell the meat to offset the compensation paid to the farmer

Cooking kills the bTB bacteria - so no problem

pasteurisation fixes milk too

[abagguley]

Thanks for posting this, Roger - I've mailed DEFRA, and will pass the link on to others.

Adrian

[A CHAPLIN]

Roger,

Thank you for bringing this to our attention, this debate has been going on for many many years with badgers being killed and bovine TB still exists. It should be made compulsory for all herds to be vaccinated or proved for once and for all that the badgers are the culprits and not the cattle.

Sorry Roger as everyone knows I am not good with words but feel passionate about our wildlife, it is just too easy to blame them.

I have completed the email on the site you gave and added my own comments as well.

Please keep us informed and I hope every member of BF will sign too, many feed badgers as "welcome guests", please protect them by signing the email, after all the government/Defra say it is a public consultation, we are the public so let your views be known.

Ann

[deborah4]

[quote=cornwallbadgers]How refreshing to see this issue being discussed on this forum.

Thanks so much for posting to this thread Roger - I started the thread in the hope that people would pick this issue up and start to run with it and that's what's happened and by people that have more expertise on the subject that myself. It would be really helpful if you could continue to post updates of where we are with this to help those BF members who are interested to make appropriate responses that can be timed and directed in a way that is the most effective.

Deborah

[deborah4]

Roger

I am concerned about the wording of the e-mail response: Which Ive pasted below for those that haven't seen it

I wish to register my response to your consultation document - Controlling the Spread of Bovine Tuberculosis in Cattle in High Incidence Areas in England: Badger Culling.

With regard to Question 1 - In light of the evidence presented as part of this consultation, on balance, do you think a policy to cull badgers should be part of the approach to help control the disease in cattle in high incidence areas?

I am TOTALLY OPPOSED to any form of badger culling at least until such time as all other possibilities for the minimization of bovine TB in cattle have been fully proven to be ineffective.

In view of my response to question one, the remaining 20 questions are irrelevant.

Regards

The first part of the response to question 1 for me is not strong enough and allows a very simple response from Defra ie. 'Yes, we do' or even, 'We agree, that's why we are having the consultation', the wording of the email may illicit a response from Defra at the end of the consultation period that they are now satisfied there is enough evidence (based of course on their own statistics!) that justifies a cull.

The second part of the response, again, could illicit a response from defra, (after the consultation period), that all other methods have already proven ineffective, as rising TB infected cattle show, therefore a cull is necessary.

For me: this email does not go far enough and provides too much latitude in which a decision (which may in fact have already been take prior to the public consultation - not an uncommon feature of the present government) to carry out a cull may be justified.

Advice pleeese!

Some interesting background to the eradication of bTB in Michigan (no mention of culling!)

Prevention/Control in Livestock
In the early 1900's, the federal government instituted an eradication program for bovine TB. This program includes testing of livestock on farms and monitoring of animals sent to slaughter or trasported across state lines. As a result of this program, bovine TB has nearly been eradicated in cattle in the U.S.


ARCHIVEGovernor's Directive On Bovine TB Eradication Governor's Office Press Release)
Contact: John Truscott (517) 335-6397
Agency: Natural Resources



In an Executive Directive to the Directors of the Departments of Community Health, Agriculture and Natural Resources, Governor John Engler today called for a strategy to eradicate bovine tuberculosis in Michigan wild deer.
"The prevalence of bovine tuberculosis in the deer population in five counties of the northeast lower peninsula poses a potential risk to public health, USDA tuberculosis-free accreditation for Michigan cattle, wildlife health, wildlife related recreation and tourism," said Engler.

A state surveillance program for bovine tuberculosis, a cooperative effort among the Michigan Departments of Agriculture (MDA), Natural Resources (MDNR) and Community Health (MDCH), United States Department of Agriculture (USDA), Michigan State University, livestock producers, hunters and private hunt club owners has proven effective with the discovery of the disease in a captive white-tailed deer herd in Presque Isle County.

"This surveillance program was put in place in 1995 after tuberculosis was discovered in the wild white-tailed deer herd, to determine the extent of the problem, and to make sure the disease did not spread to livestock in the area," said MDA Director Dan Wyant.

"The discovery of tuberculosis in a captive deer herd, based on information provided by the herd owner, proves that our efforts to educate herd owners and hunters on how to identify possible symptoms of the disease, and our ongoing testing and surveillance efforts are working."

The area of intensive surveillance includes Alcona, Alpena, Montmorency, Oscoda and Presque Isle counties. "Through diligent surveillance activities, Michigan's cattle population has been, and continues to be, tuberculosis-free since 1979. We must now define an implementation strategy for a mandatory wild deer feeding ban in the affected five-county area in order to prevent any possibility of contamination to Michigan cattle," said Engler.

The mandatory feeding ban is necessary in order to minimize the concentration of animals and crowding of deer to avoid the possible transmission of bovine tuberculosis. The disease is spread among animals through prolonged direct nose to nose exposure, which is why the goal is to disperse them back into their natural population.

Michigan Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Project

Bovine tuberculosis (TB) is an infectious disease that is close to being eradicated in the United States, but still poses a significant risk to domestic livestock, wildlife, companion animals and humans throughout the world.
The Michigan Bovine TB Eradication Project involves a multi-agency team of experts from the Michigan Departments of Agriculture (MDA), Natural Resources (DNR) and Community Health (DCH); Michigan State University (MSU) and the US Department of Agriculture (USDA).

This website is a joint project between agencies. The goal is to provide comprehensive and up-to-date information on bovine tuberculosis. Each organization has a unique role in the Michigan Bovine TB Eradication Project with specific missions and resources. Contributions to this web site are made by each partner and reflect the partner's areas of expertise and involvement.

The Michigan Department of Community Health bovine TB eradication coordinator spearheads the eradication activities of each department, keeps the agencies informed and up-to-date and is the primary contact for the media. The TB Eradication Project office is located in the Lewis Cass Building, in Lansing. For additional information and contacts click here.This web site is continuously updated with the most current additions appearing in the box to your right. Additions are made to the links on the left as information becomes available. The Bovine TB Eradication Project was established by a 1998 Executive Directive



"This is the only incident of bovine tuberculosis in wild deer anywhere in the United States," said MDNR Director K.L. Cool. "The viability of the disease and its continued existence is directly linked to unnaturally high numbers of deer resulting from artificial feeding. The key to eradicating the disease is a mandatory ban on feeding which concentrates the deer--voluntary requests just haven't been enough."

Five cattle have been classified as reactors. Tuberculosis has not been confirmed in these animals. Tissue from these animals have been sent to the National Veterinary Services Laboratory at the USDA in Ames, Iowa for definitive determination.

"Consumers have no reason to worry about the safety of their milk and meat supply," said MDCH Director James K. Haveman, Jr. "The suspect herd of cattle has been quarantined so there is no possibility of this suspect meat getting into the food chain. All Grade A milk in Michigan has been required for years to be pasteurized assuring the safety of Michigan's milk supply."

Engler identified actions that must be included in the eradication strategy.

Development of wild deer herd harvest quotas consistent with eradication of bovine tuberculosis. Development and implementation methods for farmers to eliminate contact between wild deer and livestock. Continued comprehensive surveillance of livestock and deer to determine the actual prevalence of the disease and accurately evaluate trends. Dissemination of information to hunters, farmers and the public regarding the need to manage wild deer in the five county area to eradicate bovine tuberculosis.

Identification of a Bovine tuberculosis Eradication Coordinator position within the Department of Community Health to work cooperatively with all concerned agencies in overseeing the eradication management strategies.


SOURCE: http://www.michigan.gov/emergingdise...4719--,00.html

I could be wrong, but this seems to have been a successful eradication programme that did not involve culling deer, which would suggest finding ways to minimise contact (this site gives info on how bTB is spread), transport of cattle, monitoring and testing etc, and vaccination - more expensive than slaughtering badgers though.

(incidently, with regard to managing F&Mouth, I understand that UK farmers can get compensation for slaughtered cattle but cannot export innoculated cattle as this is an admission that we have an outbreak of the disease, whereas for other European farmers who have a vaccination policy in place regardless do not face this connundrum!

Really sorry its such a long post, but I do feel more info is needed for those of us who want to try and holt the cull

[cornwallbadgers]

Hello Deborah

Thanks very much for your message

My little effort - www.stopthecull.info - was set up in response to me being asked "What can I do?"

Hopefully the 'experts' at the various wildlife related agencies will shortly be setting out their plans (and maybe giving some comments/advice on what I've done).

I felt that something was needed to make responding to what is after all a public consultation actually become a reality for (hopefully) those folks who basically just want to get on with their busy lives without taking the time to make a particularly considered response.

I do agree with your comments, but chose my wording so as to try and maximise the appropriate response.
Some of the respondents so far (400+) have indeed used or added their own wording - some emotive - others well informed.

There is lots of information available on this issue - as you've found, and I've tried to guide folks towards that if they want it. Sadly perhaps its quite a complex issue that is certainly beyond many to get their heads round - even if they have a close involvement, eg farmers! So badly 'advised' by what the media annoying calls their leaders - the NFU - otherwise known as (by a farmer friend of mine) - oops - can't repeat it in polite circles - but 'little more than an insurance salesman' seems an apt description of many local NFU reps.

regarding the bTB situation in the USA, including Michigan, it certainly IS an ongoing problem, and complete 'eradication' of bTB has not been achieved. there are many diferences to here - for a start deer are a regularly hunted species with licensed shooting quotas - not a protected species. Detection and control in livestock is also different in different countries with whole herd slaughter in response to 'reactors', and the use of the gamma interferon test has been in use elsewhere to the UK for ten years. Were still thinking about it.

Regarding vacinnation of livestock - there is no cattle vacinne available, and research is ongoing to find one that is both effective and does not produce a positive TB test response in vacinated animals. I'm not up on international trade rules, but this is affected I believe according to disease status. The situation would be different for live and dead (meat) trade. UK farmers export both.

I do try not to post too much badger/bovine TB material to groups such as this one as I don't want to risk upsetting folks, but tghought the situation currently so serious for our badgers that it would be OK.

I do hope this response is adequate for you - and please feel free to join our Yahoo e-group for regular updates/press coverage, etc

best regards

Roger

Stop DEFRA killing more badgers - www.stopthecull.info

egroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peninsulabadgers/
website: http://www.cornwallbadgergroup.org.uk

Originally Posted by deborah4

Roger

For me: this email does not go far enough and provides too much latitude in which a decision (which may in fact have already been take prior to the public consultation - not an uncommon feature of the present government) to carry out a cull may be justified.

Advice pleeese!

Some interesting background to the eradication of bTB in Michigan (no mention of culling!)

[
I could be wrong, but this seems to have been a successful eradication programme that did not involve culling deer, which would suggest finding ways to minimise contact (this site gives info on how bTB is spread), transport of cattle, monitoring and testing etc, and vaccination - more expensive than slaughtering badgers though.

(incidently, with regard to managing F&Mouth, I understand that UK farmers can get compensation for slaughtered cattle but cannot export innoculated cattle as this is an admission that we have an outbreak of the disease, whereas for other European farmers who have a vaccination policy in place regardless do not face this connundrum!

Really sorry its such a long post, but I do feel more info is needed for those of us who want to try and holt the cull

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/peninsulabadgers/ www.stopthecull.info http://www.cornwallbadgergroup.org.uk]website: http://www.cornwallbadgergroup.org.uk[/url]

[Ranger James]

Originally Posted by London Birder

hi James, I found your climate>TB link very interesting...do you know if there's been any research into this?

I am not aware of any such research, but this argument is one that stuck very firmly in my mind from a second-year undergrad lecture at uni.

James

[deborah4]

Hi Cornwallbadgers

Thanks very much for coming back on this one - and thank you for putting me right about the Michigan bTB programme.

I think what you have initiated should be highly applauded and as you say, encourages people to at least register some form of protest.

I agree, bombarding this thread with science will probably complicate things even more!

However, I suppose I should say I am generally opposed to culling of any sort which is why I had problems with the email response not going far enough for me personally. I accept this is probably an unrealistic and unpracticable position to take. However, my basis for this position is that I believe modern, intensive farming methods have diverse and direct links to detrimental health among domestic and wild animals and would like to see these explored, adapted, better managed before culling is resorted to as a means of disease control. Are there any organisations, sites that can support this position that you know of?

I will amend the wording on the email link in a way that maybe reflects this a little better for my own response but based on your style of wording, the language being non-confrontational, which I agree is what we need.

Do all wildlife organisations accept that culling can be necessary in some circumstances? If so, I am probably on the road to nowhere with this one! I would very much like to see a campaign who's starting point is Culling would not be necessary with less intensive farming methods and proper management & farming Policy.

LATER EDIT

Just as I thought - the Badger Trust UK takes a position that culling would not materially effect a decline in the spread of bTB.

Please read their Policy which has been devised in response to the proposed Cull. Type in 'Badger Trust UK' as a search string and it will take you to the home page.

James Couldn't find much here on climate links only that bTB thrives in warm humid soil