Join for FREE
It only takes a minute!
Magnifying the passion for nature. Zeiss Victory Harpia 95. New!

Welcome to BirdForum.
BirdForum is the net's largest birding community, dedicated to wild birds and birding, and is absolutely FREE! You are most welcome to register for an account, which allows you to take part in lively discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 17:50   #1
AJDH
Registered User
 
AJDH's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Work Saudi Arabia Home Bolton England
Posts: 4,174
Little or Saunder's tern - Eastern Saudi

I've done it again...............is it a Little or Saunder's tern?


http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...cat/3206/page/

Extra views attached.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	AJD_0071_800w.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	180.3 KB
ID:	46449  Click image for larger version

Name:	AJD_0064_800w.jpg
Views:	190
Size:	196.2 KB
ID:	46450  
AJDH is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 19th May 2006, 18:32   #2
Th_SQ
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 739
Can you tell us when the pictures were taken ?
Pictures show only two black primaries (and extensive white on forehead) which would lead to Little. But I think there is one missing primary (penultimate I think) so it may be important to know if the bird can be in moult.
Th_SQ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 18:44   #3
AJDH
Registered User
 
AJDH's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Work Saudi Arabia Home Bolton England
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Th_SQ
Can you tell us when the pictures were taken ?
Pictures show only two black primaries (and extensive white on forehead) which would lead to Little. But I think there is one missing primary (penultimate I think) so it may be important to know if the bird can be in moult.
Sorry about that, they were taken today.
AJDH is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Friday 19th May 2006, 19:25   #4
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,162
Adrian,

Some more images there, and judging by the first one here we are back at Little I think. Compared to the one in the gallery one can now get a better view of the white forehead patch and how it obviously reaches over, and behind the eye, a clear Little character, as pointed out here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....highlight=tern

Nice ones Adrian!

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 19:48   #5
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
I agree with JanJ, Little Tern
2 blacker outer primaries fits more to Little Tern too (has sometimes also 3)
legs reddish orange, Saunder's legs are generally darker etc...
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 19:50   #6
Th_SQ
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 739
JanJ :

"Terns" by KMO & H.Larsson : "Only those with a combinaison of all characters can be identified"

From the date, the bird may well be in moult (I'll pretty sure there is one primary missing, explaining wierd pattern).

Best left unidentified for me.


Just my opinion
Th_SQ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 19:54   #7
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
As you see,Little can be 3 blacker outer primaries
http://www.tarsiger.com/images/hande/Stealb4.jpg
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 20:16   #8
Th_SQ
Registered User

 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 739
I prefer to follow the wise advice of K.M.O., the author of "Tern", and keep this bird unidentified. Just my choice



(And well, I would not call "black" the primaries of the Little Tern with 3 dark primaries. On Adrian's bird here it's really black and extensive).
Th_SQ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Friday 19th May 2006, 22:58   #9
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,162
Agree on the wise advice, and that it seem to have one primary missing, probably the prenultimate, which would be a pro-Saunder´s character, but the head pattern looks very good for Little.

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 01:01   #10
CJW
Hit-and-run WUM
 
CJW's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,861
The legs look a bit dull to me and, if it is a Little Tern, what happened to the black tip to it's bill?? It's bill is almost reminiscent of a Fairy Tern (Sterna nereis). Not that I'm suggesting that as a possibility!
__________________
Chris

Last edited by CJW : Saturday 20th May 2006 at 01:04.
CJW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 07:05   #11
hannu
Registered User
 
hannu's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Finland
Posts: 2,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJW
The legs look a bit dull to me and, if it is a Little Tern, what happened to the black tip to it's bill??
Also Saunder's should be black tip to it's bill. Concerning the colour of legs,
see follow link:
http://www.birdingisrael.com/birdNew...undersTern.htm

But this overall impression fits perhaps better to Little..., who knows---- ;-)

Porter et all in Field Guide to the Birds of the Middle East does not mention Fairy Tern (Sterna nereis)...
hannu is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 09:30   #12
Jane Turner
Registered User
 
Jane Turner's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Hoylake, Merseyside
Posts: 22,806
Agree its not safely identifiable, but that bird is in moult and it will have three black outer primaries. It comes down to which feather you choose to believe - the primary or the one stray white one which extends the forehead patch over the eye!
__________________

Last Cheshire Surf Scoter (310) last Red Rocks Subalpine Warbler (260), last Garden Great White Egret (208), last Self-found Citrine Wagtail (294)
Jane Turner is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 10:00   #13
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,162
Lack of black tip on the bill is not a major problem. Moult is complex, as noted in 'Terns' and Adrians bird might not be fully adult (maybe a 2nd summer ?) due to darker lesser covert bar and a brownish primary covert, but the outer primaries doe´s look blacker than the inner one. According to 'Terns' Saunder´s moult later than Little (variable), and normally retains thre outer primaries which are deeper black comp. to Little. Number of black outer primaries is a variable character, and as Th_SQ mentioned a combination of characters would of course be wise. That head pattern on a 'clean' Saunder´s I would like to see! Intergrades complicates the situation further.

Check headpattern, males and females on Little here (from Northern Europe)

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-48087/fagl...albifrons.html

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 11:58   #14
CJW
Hit-and-run WUM
 
CJW's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Isle of Man
Posts: 4,861
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANJ
Lack of black tip on the bill is not a major problem
It might not be a problem, all I was saying was it's unusual. I've never seen a Little Tern without the black bill tip.
__________________
Chris
CJW is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 17:25   #15
AJDH
Registered User
 
AJDH's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Work Saudi Arabia Home Bolton England
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANJ
Lack of black tip on the bill is not a major problem. Moult is complex, as noted in 'Terns' and Adrians bird might not be fully adult (maybe a 2nd summer ?) due to darker lesser covert bar and a brownish primary covert, but the outer primaries doe´s look blacker than the inner one. According to 'Terns' Saunder´s moult later than Little (variable), and normally retains thre outer primaries which are deeper black comp. to Little. Number of black outer primaries is a variable character, and as Th_SQ mentioned a combination of characters would of course be wise. That head pattern on a 'clean' Saunder´s I would like to see! Intergrades complicates the situation further.

Check headpattern, males and females on Little here (from Northern Europe)

http://home.swipnet.se/~w-48087/fagl...albifrons.html

JanJ
Jan,

My only guide on the region "Helm" mentions that in the Gulf area, intermediates occur. would it be safe to call this an intermediate?
AJDH is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 17:46   #16
JANJ
Registered User
 
JANJ's Avatar

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sweden
Posts: 8,162
For the time bieng Adrian, although the head pattern say´s Little, and Little can show 3 blackish/black outer primaries, but more work is required to check on the moult of Little and Saunder´s.

Always nice to work with your birds Adrian.

JanJ
JANJ is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Saturday 20th May 2006, 18:11   #17
AJDH
Registered User
 
AJDH's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Work Saudi Arabia Home Bolton England
Posts: 4,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by JANJ
For the time bieng Adrian, although the head pattern say´s Little, and Little can show 3 blackish/black outer primaries, but more work is required to check on the moult of Little and Saunder´s.

Always nice to work with your birds Adrian.

JanJ
My pleasure Jan.
AJDH is offline  
Reply With Quote

BF Supporter 2007 Support BirdForum With A Donation

Advertisement
Reply


Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
South Korea Report 2005 tf1044x Vacational Trip Reports 7 Friday 11th November 2005 13:23
Saunder's Tern rafo1 Photos of New Species for OPUS 2 Sunday 29th May 2005 19:50
Turkey July 2004 Rich Bonser Vacational Trip Reports 10 Saturday 5th March 2005 07:50
uk Migration Steve Migration 8 Sunday 20th April 2003 01:14
uk sightings tuesday 15th April 2003 Steve Your Rarities 0 Tuesday 15th April 2003 22:24

{googleads}

Fatbirder's Top 1000 Birding Websites

Help support BirdForum

Page generated in 0.18918490 seconds with 27 queries
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:56.