[CJW]

I think he's on the payrole of the BOU Manxman. Better be careful if we want the shrike to 'pass' unhindered.........(you know what the dodgy handshake brigade are like!).

[Malvolio]

Ah ! you clearly have your finger on the pulse of birding CJW - perhaps you can explain exactly why the BOU would have anything to do with the alleged steppe Grey Shrike?

MV

[Steve]

I would usually explain why the IOM isn't included in the British list Steve, but looking at your entries in the ringing/banding forum you seem uneducated and so probably wouldnt understand...

Try explaining it manxman, I may not be as uneducated as you think?

[Michael Frankis]

How does the Manx Tourist Board feel about the likely reduced income from fewer UK twitchers coming, if they feel it's not right to tick Manx birds on their UK list?

Michael

[CJW]

Don't be daft Michael!
Malvolio, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and the sign of a weak mind. Evidently I need to explain: I was making a tongue in cheek remark hinting at that perhaps a nod and a wink in the right direction from someone inside the BOU might reduce the chances of the 'alleged' steppe Grey Shrike of being accepted - hence the reference to the 'dodgy handshake brigade. Sorry, perhaps it was too subtle for you. Nice use of the word 'alleged' by the way, but you didn't really think I'd bite at that little morsel did you?
I think this thread is getting away from my original intent which was to get some constructive feedback about the identification of a beautiful bird.

[Malvolio]

CJW,
To state that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit is to be guilty of the crassest of cliches. sarcasm is a subspecies of irony any that is obviously a higher form of wit - otherwise Americans would get it. BTW who was it who originally took this thread in the direction which led us here, methinks it was you when you originally referred to the birds tickability by Brits.
If the shrike is acceptable it will be acceptable on its merits and irrespective of your paranoia. To draw on authorities (eminent birders) in support of your provisional identification and then to castigate authorities (BOU) a few posts later is a sign of a weak and confused mind.

MV

[max davis]

Now now boys...... is this fisticuffs (or should I say handbags) at forty paces!

Personally I would be interested in facts such as -

1. Is the bird still there?

2. Is anybody travelling to see it who is knowledgeable on the species

3. How much is a ferry ticket to the Isle of man?

4. How much is a pint over there

5. Why is steve Uneducated ?

[Steve]

Gentlemen, Gentlemen Please.....................................

[CJW]

Sorry Steve! I'll bite my tongue. Again.
1.The bird was there until dusk.
2. All (but one) would be welcome.
3. I think a return foot passenger is £38 or so from Heysham
4. Bitter is about £1.75
5. I doubt it very much.

[Michael Frankis]

"3. I think a return foot passenger is £38 or so from Heysham"
How far to walk from Douglas (if that's where the ship lands) to the shrike?

"4. Bitter is about £1.75"
What's the UK Pound / Manx Pound exchange rate, and do your banks make a £40 charge for changing £1.75 into another currency, like ours do??

Not that I'll be able to get across anyway, can't afford the ferry price :-(

Michael

[CJW]

It's about 20 miles from the ferry terminal to the bird, but if any of the BF-ers want to come and see it I would happily pick them up and take them there (just PM me).
There's no exchange rate, sterling is an acceptable currency - as is the Manx Pound in the UK (although we have problems convincing retailers of the fact!).

[Swift]

This thread has been most interesting , for once CJW is on the back foot and instead of stirring the waters hes been on the receiving end!!!

[Malvolio]

Michael,

I'm surprised you'd want to go to the Great Grey area (geddit) as you previously proclaimed very confidently that the bird was definitely excubitor anyway. Have you now got an updated copy of your Big Book of Birds for Boys?

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!!

In any case would you really want to run the risk of going and having to listen to CJD (sorry, CJW) trying to rule the roost and pontificating from a position of ignorance. Shame the news got out that he wasn't the finder - he didn't seem keen to enlighten anyone about this fact.....

MV

[Ashley beolens]

I don't want to spoil the fun but try and keep personal insults and attacks out of a public forum! they don't add anything to a disscussion and make the people involved look immature and not worth listening to in the future.

Malvolio, having read this thread I don't recall CJW ever claiming to have found the bird! he simply asked for oppinions. If you've had a lovers tiff keep it off the forum!

As for the shrike (which is what we should be disscussing) I have no idea which it is, there seems to be quite a varied thought on what to use to identify the seperate species. Still its a nice looking bird, that I would like to have seen, shame its not in Britain.

[peteh]

Well said Ashley,
this thread was fast becoming "Black lark post - The sequel!"

[CJW]

Thanks Ashley, saved me a job!
The bird is still present and showing well for the ½doz or so birders who came to see it. They have all gone away happy with the i.d. and, more importantly, having been privileged enough to see such a beautiful and obliging bird.

[green_ruk]

Hi CJW

Even if you weren't the original finder, congrats on cracking the ID of this excellent (and educational) bird...

As many have already discovered, the literature is a bit thin on black-billed forms of steppe grey. I, for one, would be interested to hear the views of the two eminent birders who pronounced on the specific ID of your bird. Cutting edge or what!

Regards

Rob

[Manxman]

Now to really put the cat amongst the pigeons (or should that be shrikes)...

Has anyone thought about the North African races - it fits very nicely as an 'interbreed' of that geographical area. Various literature (BWP, Shrikes & Bush Shrikes, Birding World 8/8) all state that several North African races can be as pale (even paler) than pallidirostris and also have black bill, black lores and a shorter primary projection.

Several of the visiting birders also liked this theory apart from one gent who was obviously desperate to tick off 'Steppe' in his list of possible future splits!!!

[Malvolio]

All,

We await a reply regarding who the so-called eminent birders are who have identified this as pallidirostris and what their reasoning is.

In a nutshell, where's the evidence?

MV

[Manxman]

I could think of more polite ways of putting it MV!

In essence the problem is a complete lack of literature on black-billed Steppe. There is literature however on North African races showing features that fit this bird.

CJW has done a lot of research on this (as have myself and another local birder) so don't dismiss his work so easily.

The danger is that just because there is no literature that states steppe commonly shows black bill and lores doesn't mean that its not possible...

I have seen the emails from the 'eminent' birders (I, personally, would use another word to describe one of them ) but they confidently state that adult male pallidirostris have black bills (yet don't cite their references).

The next thorn in this theory is that the bird shows different amount of wear in its wing (primary wear is uneven and noticeably worn compared to the relatively fresh looking greater coverts) this is maybe indicitaive of a first summer bird??? The bird is a male though as it sings regularly (unless females of this species can sing.....?????). Given this, and the theory that it is a pallidirostris you would expect the bird to still have some pale areas on the bill given that first winter birds have very pale bills...

This is still not clean cut in my mind and anyone confidently stating a race to this bird is only kidding themselves at the moment...

[Malvolio]

Ok, Thanks for that Manxman,

As far as I'm aware the only race of '.....Grey Shrike' which is colloquially known as 'Steppe' Grey is pallidirostris, i.e. if it's not pallidirostris it's not a Steppe Grey.

Have you been in touch with anyone who has actually seen pallidirostris on the breeding grounds? if so what do they say about the bill etc...?

I'd agree that the relatively worn/ faded primaries would seem to suggest a 1st-s, and if some pallidirostris can show black bills I'd guess it would be mostly males that did so so you might be looking at a 1st-s male. What we need to know is what proportion, if any, pallidirostris do show black bills and if so at what age does this develop.

I agree with your last sentence entirely, I've been confused by wintering/ resident grey shrikes in the gulf area for years....none of these seem to conform to stereotypes in the literature.

MV

[Andrew]

It certainly is exciting watching this discussion. Whatever it turns out to be it would be alifer for, even a simple Grey Shrike. I await the final outcome with tense anticipation.

[Paul Rule]

I've also been fascinated to follow this, and a question I would like to raise is, is it actually going to be possible to get a 100% ID here. These sub species (or whatever anyone likes to classify them as) are (to me at least) almost identical and bearing in mind that variations between individual of the same species are quite common, who is to say that it is a Steppe Strike or an aberrant GG Shrike or an aberrant Steppe Shrike or a strait forward GGS.

One more question, regardless of parentage, isn’t this an unusual bird to show up in the British Isles at this time of the year?

[CJW]

I doubt a 100% ID is going to be likely. Suffice to say we are cofident of it being a Southern Grey Shrike but as to it's race, well that's open for discussion at the moment.
Malvolio, I'm happy to name the two 'eminent' birders in a PM if you really want to know their names - not that it will change anything. As Manxman has indicated we have Email information which could indicate one of several races - including pallidirostris. I can't vouch for their accuracy, but some of it is from people who have been involved in ringing pallidirostris in Kazhakstan.

[Manxman]

Originally posted by Malvolio
Ok, Thanks for that Manxman,

I'd agree that the relatively worn/ faded primaries would seem to suggest a 1st-s, and if some pallidirostris can show black bills I'd guess it would be mostly males that did so so you might be looking at a 1st-s male. What we need to know is what proportion, if any, pallidirostris do show black bills and if so at what age does this develop.

MV

What do you think we've been trying to do since this bird was found???!!!....

We've so far got emails from 1 person who has seen pallidirostris on breeding grounds and said that males could show black bill and lores. I've also sopken two people who have seen birds in North Africa and they too have commented on the similarity of this bird to the ones there.

Taking this into consideration and the fact that this bird is also structurally different from pallidirostris (much shorter primary projection & 'stubby' looking bill) the theory for North African origin has arisen.

To confidently claim any particular race with this bird however is going to almost impossible.

What we don't need however is twitchers desperate for a tick talking themselves into making the bird a 'Steppe' (on the grounds that it may be future split - altough I really doubt that is going to happen in the short-term given the confused status). I heard one twitcher yesterday say the bird had a brown bill and pale lores!!!!!!!! Have you seen the latest photos on www.birdguides.com? You try and tell me it has a brown bill... If one of those prats decides to submit a description to BBRC which contradicts the descriptions we have been painstakingly taking over more than 75hours combined viewing then it could spoil the whole party...