[Tom Dunne]

Firstly, if this topic has been beat to death here, please just point me to the thread(s). I did a search of BirdForum and didn't uncover any.

So, here goes...

I'm a birder first, then a very amateur photographer. On one particular nature photograhpy site I frequent, the practice of using recorded bird songs/calls to bring birds closer is met with disdain. I find that most of these discussions turn toward "ethics", which appear to be just people stating their opinions as facts.

I don't want to hear opinions, but want to read research studies that either verify that using recorded bird songs for attracting a species is, in fact, harmful to the species or not.

So, if you have any such data, I would greatly appreciate you posting it (or a link) so that I can form my opinions on the practice based around facts.

For the record, I have not used this technique, but have talked with photographers who do and who get wonderful images. However, as I stated, the vast majority of those on this particular photography site would make you feel that you're committing a great sin against the birds and that you should be ashamed of taking part in such tactics.

Also, for the record, I am a 'pisher' and see no wrong in it. My opinion is that using recorded songs is not adding any more stress to a given species than all of the other stresses occuring in a given day to that species. However, my opinion is just that, an "opinion", and I'd like to become educated on the known facts.

I look forward to the "facts", but will tolerate your "opinions" as well.

tom.

[Collster]

Originally Posted by Tom Dunne

Firstly, if this topic has been beat to death here, please just point me to the thread(s). I did a search of BirdForum and didn't uncover any.

So, here goes...

I'm a birder first, then a very amateur photographer. On one particular nature photograhpy site I frequent, the practice of using recorded bird songs/calls to bring birds closer is met with disdain. I find that most of these discussions turn toward "ethics", which appear to be just people stating their opinions as facts.

I don't want to hear opinions, but want to read research studies that either verify that using recorded bird songs for attracting a species is, in fact, harmful to the species or not.

So, if you have any such data, I would greatly appreciate you posting it (or a link) so that I can form my opinions on the practice based around facts.

For the record, I have not used this technique, but have talked with photographers who do and who get wonderful images. However, as I stated, the vast majority of those on this particular photography site would make you feel that you're committing a great sin against the birds and that you should be ashamed of taking part in such tactics.

Also, for the record, I am a 'pisher' and see no wrong in it. My opinion is that using recorded songs is not adding any more stress to a given species than all of the other stresses occuring in a given day to that species. However, my opinion is just that, an "opinion", and I'd like to become educated on the known facts.

I look forward to the "facts", but will tolerate your "opinions" as well.

tom.

I think this has cropped up before somewhere. If it is done during the breeding season on its territory then it does stress a bird, you don't have to think about it too long to see why. Out of the breeding season if done as a one off and not daily to the same birds then try it

[jim_birder]

totally agree with valley boy a one off will not harm the bird at all but constant use will eventually force the bird away from its habitat due to hearing a rival but not being able to defend its territory it will eventually give in and go elswhere so i was told by a man whilst out nightjarring and i put the same suggestion to him and that was wat he told me

[Grousemore]

An informative previous Thread can be read here;

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread....ht=tape+luring

[Tom Dunne]

Read the thread. Interestingly, Andrew starts his thread with this statement:

First, there apparently have been NO THOROUGH SCIENTIFIC SURVEYS actually checking the possible effect playback has on birds. Overall, most scientists agree that playback if done using common sense, pose few problems.

Exactly, .....

Again, this thread is full of "opinions" not "facts". It is my belief that we tend to humanize animals, projecting our understanding of the world onto them. For instance, if someone was outside my house yelling "Hey Tom. Come on Out", over and over and over, I would become annoyed after awhile. None of us would disagree to this example. However, we cannot, therefore, project that same reaction to any animal species without research to prove/disprove this projection.

So, if anyone is interested to continue this thread, please join in. Especially if you have some data to point to how birds are really affected by being exposed to their specific call.

tom.

[hollis_f]

Originally Posted by Tom Dunne

Especially if you have some data to point to how birds are really affected by being exposed to their specific call.

tom.

Q. Why do you want to play recorded sounds to these birds?

A. To alter their behaviour.

So, either the bird is affected by being exposed to the recorded sounds or such exposure won't have the desired effect.

[Richard D]

Originally Posted by hollis_f

Q. Why do you want to play recorded sounds to these birds?

A. To alter their behaviour.

So, either the bird is affected by being exposed to the recorded sounds or such exposure won't have the desired effect.

Agreed - It doesn't require scientific research papers to prove that playing a call or song does alter behaviour. The question is how detrimental this is on the bird and that will depend on the individual circumstances of the bird being distracted.

[malskelton]

Originally Posted by Richard D

Agreed - It doesn't require scientific research papers to prove that playing a call or song does alter behaviour. The question is how detrimental this is on the bird and that will depend on the individual circumstances of the bird being distracted.

I don't suppose you could scientifically prove the detrimental effect unless you try and strap a heart monitor to the bird in question - which may prove quite tricky.

I imagine that tape luring a bird once may not cause a great deal more stress than it endures daily anyway - but imagine if another person comes along 1/2 hour later with the same thoughts - and then another etc etc.

I heard a story with a similar theme to this regarding Golden Orioles in Norfolk - car pulled up played the sound, male reacted and appeared, bird was ticked and team moved off. Sounds fine, until the next car pulls up and does the same for the rest of the day

Even with scientific proof I imagine those people who use those techniques would argue that the test was floored or that it doesn't apply to the way they are carrying out the luring anyway and carry on regardless

What you need to decide is which is more important the bird or the photo

Mal Skelton

[Tom Dunne]

Richard: I just go this funny picture in my mind of a Warbler with a heart monitor attached, leads running off to a machine and some nutty-professor type taking notes!

You make a good point; we probably can't know what the stresses are on the bird. I've searched Cornell University's site, but to no avail. It's not that I'm wanting to take sides on this, just that, as a scientist, I like to know as many facts about something than rather just conjecture and opinions.

thanks for the post.
tom.

[ed keeble]

Originally Posted by Tom Dunne

Richard: I just go this funny picture in my mind of a Warbler with a heart monitor attached, leads running off to a machine and some nutty-professor type taking notes!

thanks for the post.
tom.

One specific claim has been that a bird will modify its territory in response to what seems to them to be a persistently calling challenging male. So as a result some prime habitat ends up unoccupied. That would be testable (to establish it if happened and for how long)-but no I haven't seen experimental data.

[Sancho]

Anecdotal "evidence": nightjars are rare as hen´s teeth here. A pair that has nested at a site in the south was visited by a lot of birders last year. This year, they returned, but some folk have been playing recordings at them to draw them out. They have apparently abandoned the site recently. Nothing is proven here, a host of factors can cause a bird to abandon a site. I wondered recently if LE owls had spooked them, it could just as easily have been cats, or foxes, or disease, we´ll never know. But just as was said in an earlier post, I wouldn´t be comfortable with a guy blaring a soundtrack outside my house every night saying "Éanna, come out here ye big bo...ix, I´m much badder than you". (Mind you, moving house would be a big hassle..)

[London Birder]

was on a trip to Scotland, got to a Corncrake site ... other birders present and someone whacked up a Crex recording to 10, consequnce was the two birds which were previously calling fell silent followed by three domestic cats exiting the two relevent fields .. previously calling birds never piped up again during the remaining hour on site ...

[colonelboris]

I've found that whistling a bird song back to the bird usually produces no result other than funny looks if other people are around.
However, I did once have some luck with a chiffchaff. I copied each phrase and each time it increased the complexity of the phrase. After a minute or two of this, the bird hopped into view and saw me whistle. It stopped its defensive-looking stance and went back to looking for food in the tree.
It may well be if the bird realises that the call is not another bird, but a another animal entirely, they are not too affected by it.
Hardly scientific, but may be worth trying to prove one day.

[Tom Dunne]

Interesting example, Colonel. As I stated in my first post in this thread, I am a "pisher" (not sure of the other worldly jargon used for this practice), and I see this reaction with the birds that do respond. Mostly I just get a moment of a Wren's time to come see what the hell that sound is, then they move on doing whatever they were doing. Same with Catbirds. Some just ignore me totally. But pishing doesn't seem to be too frowned upon in the birding world, at least as compared to playing recorded songs.

I do appreciate the posts here and the anecdotal "evidence".

tom.