[Stephen Dunstan]

Having read and contributed to an interesting thread on these on BF lately I have just got sight of a copy of Pipits and Wagtails. I have to say I'm a bit disappointed by its treatment of the littoralis / petrosus issues.

It says some petrosus look like littoralis and therefore ID of the latter is (except in exceptional Water Pipit like cases) unsafe. It doesn't say how common these lookalikes are, and how it is known they are petrosus and not out of range littoralis (cf Blue-headed Wagtails nesting in Britain). Is it from measurements? Anybody know how often these variants turn up, there are odd Yellow Wags which turn up now and again but we don't give up on identifying other races.

Also unless I have missed it the text seems to say nothing about a difference in outertail feather colouring for littoralis and petrosus. Even if the authors are discounting this previously accepted theory I would expect some reference to it.

I also think the Scandinavian bias to the photographs is unfortunate, with no definite petrosus pictured. The bird in plate 44 (sorry those without the book) is used to illustrate the fact that the outer tail can look white on all Rock Pipits, yet this bird has a very pronounced supercilium and could have white looking outer tail feathers because it is littoralis under the old scheme of things.

Apologies if this is rubbish or of no interest to anyone other than me.

Stephen.

[Steve Lister]

Hi Stephen
As far as I am aware littoralis do not have white outer tail feathers, so I'm not sure what you are getting at there. And rather than saying that some petrosus look like littoralis, I would put it the other way round; littoralis are very variable,presumably depending to some extent exactly which bit of the range they are from.
I have not got this book, and your comments don't push me towards buying it. Scandinavians seem to be at the fore when it comes to ID books at the moment, what with seawatching, pipits and wagtails, and gulls. I feel that they are a bit conservative when it comes to treating races and species; if the Dutch went in for writing ID books then they would turn out very different!!

[Stephen Dunstan]

Steve,

Many thanks for your reply.

I probably haven't put it very well, but I am referring to comments in other literature about the outer tail feathers being whitish in littoralis, enabling them to be distinguished from petrosus with dusky grey outer tail feathers whilst not being pure white like a Water Pipit. What the new tome seems to say is that littoralis have outer tail feathers like petrosus, but with wear some (of presumably both races) can appear paler.

The Birdline South East article, by Chris Heard I think, makes the point about outer tail feathers. I can probably dig out a web reference if it would help.

Despite recommendations on the BF site I probably wouldn't buy the pipits and wagtails book either, I have borrowed a copy from the library and £48 seems a bit steep for what you get. The stuff on Water / Rock Pipit ID, which particularly interests me, doesn't seem to have advanced upon the Birdwatch article the authors did several years ago as a (rather premature!) trailer for this book.

Stephen.

[Steve Lister]

Wish we had a library round here that got newly published bird books in as quick as your's !!

[cuddy]

I have been informed that Scandanavian RP can have a white outer tail though most do not, makes for a confusing time.