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peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:09

Hello,

Spotted this duck in with the Tufted ducks on a gravel pit.
It was a touch smaller than the Tuftys.
It had a yellow eye, the head (much deeper and squarer than the tuftys) was completely brown. At one point when it swam it lay its tail flat on the water rather than sticking up like in all the pics.
It never lifted its head up to show the neck unlike the tufted ducks around it and it never fed so I couldnt tell you if it was a diving duck etc.
I apologise for the photos, the bird was approx 400m + it was glaring sunshine today so it was heat haze tastic!
Anyone any ideas?

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:10

another pic
(infront of a tufted duck)

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:11

in with a pile of tufted ducks

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:25

Shape a bit like a (presumably juv.) Goldeneye?

The long tail makes another Aythya look unlikely (compare the Tufty in the middle pic! - also with its tail up)

Michael

Harry Hussey · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:29

Hi Pete,
Agree with Michael,it looks like a Goldeneye.
Harry H

**robinm** · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:31

My first reaction on seeing the top photo particularly was Goldeneye. On further thought I cannot think what else it might be, so Goldeneye it is.

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:36

I did think Goldeneye early on but with it being smaller than the tuftys and with it having a flat crown I scrubbed Goldeneye.
Maybe someone gave it a bop on the head when it was younger.
:)

CJW · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:39

I disagree. It's way too small for Goldeneye - they're bigger, on average, than tufties and Pete's bird is obviously smaller than tufty. Doesn't mean to say I know what it is yet though.......

Harry Hussey · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:44

Hi CJW,
Could a young Goldeneye fly while still smaller than the adult(as in young auks)?Doesn't seem to be the right shape for a Bufflehead:maybe a Bufflehead x Goldeneye is possible?
Some clearer photos if possible would be a great help...
Harry H

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:47

Hi Chris,

I don't think Goldeneye are larger!

Collins Bird Guide gives 40-47cm for Tufty and 40-48cm for Goldeneye**, so in length they overlap almost completely. And given that G'eye's length includes a longer tail, its body length will be a bit shorter on average.

If you've got a recently fledged juv G'eye (down from Speyside? or locally bred?) it might also not yet be fully grown.

** and sooner or later, it'll happen that you get a 40cm G'eye with a couple of 47cm Tufties - then it would really stand out as smaller!

Michael

CJW · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:50

Hi Harry, I think that all ducks are "full-sized" at the flying age. I'm thinking a hybrid aswell, I'll go up there this evening and have a look to see if I can get any better pictures (I didn't mean it to sound like that Pete, you KNOW what I meant!).
By the way, it might help to know that Goldeneye don't breed on the Isle Of Man.

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:56

Don't know about ducks, but swans and geese can certainly fly well, a little before they're full adult size

Michael

Harry Hussey · Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:58

Hi CJW,
Goldeneye don't breed in Ireland either...but they have done on occasion!Maybe the species has bred unknown to you all?
Anyway,as Michael said,there is a fair degree of overlap in size between Tufted Duck and Goldeneye,and maybe the Tufteds are on the large side?Pure Bufflehead is TINY,too big for that(and wrong shape).Tail/head certainly point to a goldeneye sp or a hybrid with genes from a goldeneye sp.
Harry H

CJW · Sunday 13th July 2003, 17:00

Michael, yes, let's ignore how steep the forehead is or flat-topped the crown is.
It ain't a Goldeneye.

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 17:04

You should be able to get good shots this evening with the heat haze gone and the sun behind.

(By the way theres a 4x4 track further down so i walked that and didnt need to get ripped to pieces by gorse which was nice.)

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 17:28

Quote:

Originally posted by Harry Hussey
Goldeneye don't breed in Ireland either...but they have done on occasion! Maybe the species has bred unknown to you all?

Hi Harry,
My thoughts exactly

Quote:

Originally posted by Peteee23
You should be able to get good shots this evening

If it is out of photo range, you could always pretend that there could be Ruddy Duck in the parentage, and that the good shots need to be obtained with a 12-bore . . .

Michael

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 18:19

If what I read just then is true about Goldeneye nesting in old Woodpecker nests then we definately would not get breeding Goldeneye. We would need some Woodpeckers first!!!!
:)
(plus some decent trees of course.)

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 18:34

Hi Peteee,

Most of the Scottish Goldeneyes nest in nestboxes! If anyone has got any large boxes (Stock Dove size or larger) up within a mile of fresh water, Goldeneye could use them. Natural tree holes are also OK and do get used.

Michael

StevieEvans · Sunday 13th July 2003, 19:10

I agree with Harry, Bufflehead x Goldeneye hybrid looks a good choice, but the raised tail is very prominant........ so it might have a 'touch' of Ring-necked Duck...?

As for the Goldeneye size debate, i can't ever remember seeing a Female Goldeneye which was as large as a Tufted Duck.

Hope to see more pic's.
S

CJW · Sunday 13th July 2003, 19:44

Sorry folks, couldn't relocate it.
Who cares anyway? It was a crappy brown duck!!!
Looks like the shrike has finally departed by the way. He left his last meal untouched......

peteh · Sunday 13th July 2003, 21:16

Looks like It will be another heinz 57 then.
Oh well
that will be tick number 2 in my hybrid list then!!
:P

Michael Frankis · Sunday 13th July 2003, 22:09

Could it be one of those rubber ducks that were on the news yesterday??

Michael

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:09	#1
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	Duck Id? Hello, Spotted this duck in with the Tufted ducks on a gravel pit. It was a touch smaller than the Tuftys. It had a yellow eye, the head (much deeper and squarer than the tuftys) was completely brown. At one point when it swam it lay its tail flat on the water rather than sticking up like in all the pics. It never lifted its head up to show the neck unlike the tufted ducks around it and it never fed so I couldnt tell you if it was a diving duck etc. I apologise for the photos, the bird was approx 400m + it was glaring sunshine today so it was heat haze tastic! Anyone any ideas? Attached Thumbnails

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:10	#2
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	another pic (infront of a tufted duck) Attached Thumbnails

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:11	#3
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	in with a pile of tufted ducks Attached Thumbnails

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:25	#4
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Shape a bit like a (presumably juv.) Goldeneye? The long tail makes another Aythya look unlikely (compare the Tufty in the middle pic! - also with its tail up) Michael __________________ My signature

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:31	#6
robinm Super Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Kent, England Posts: 17,833 My location	My first reaction on seeing the top photo particularly was Goldeneye. On further thought I cannot think what else it might be, so Goldeneye it is. __________________ Robin Man of Kent
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Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:29	#5
Harry Hussey Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cork,Ireland Posts: 3,804	Hi Pete, Agree with Michael,it looks like a Goldeneye. Harry H

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:36	#7
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	I did think Goldeneye early on but with it being smaller than the tuftys and with it having a flat crown I scrubbed Goldeneye. Maybe someone gave it a bop on the head when it was younger. :) __________________ http://www.manxbirdphotography.co.uk

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:39	#8
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	I disagree. It's way too small for Goldeneye - they're bigger, on average, than tufties and Pete's bird is obviously smaller than tufty. Doesn't mean to say I know what it is yet though....... __________________ Chris Isle of Man Birding

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:44	#9
Harry Hussey Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cork,Ireland Posts: 3,804	Hi CJW, Could a young Goldeneye fly while still smaller than the adult(as in young auks)?Doesn't seem to be the right shape for a Bufflehead:maybe a Bufflehead x Goldeneye is possible? Some clearer photos if possible would be a great help... Harry H

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:47	#10
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Hi Chris, I don't think Goldeneye are larger! Collins Bird Guide gives 40-47cm for Tufty and 40-48cm for Goldeneye, so in length they overlap almost completely. And given that G'eye's length includes a longer tail, its body length will be a bit shorter on average. If you've got a recently fledged juv G'eye (down from Speyside? or locally bred?) it might also not yet be fully grown. and sooner or later, it'll happen that you get a 40cm G'eye with a couple of 47cm Tufties - then it would really stand out as smaller! Michael __________________ My signature Last edited by Michael Frankis : Sunday 13th July 2003 at 16:49.

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:50	#11
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	Hi Harry, I think that all ducks are "full-sized" at the flying age. I'm thinking a hybrid aswell, I'll go up there this evening and have a look to see if I can get any better pictures (I didn't mean it to sound like that Pete, you KNOW what I meant!). By the way, it might help to know that Goldeneye don't breed on the Isle Of Man. __________________ Chris Isle of Man Birding

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:56	#12
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Don't know about ducks, but swans and geese can certainly fly well, a little before they're full adult size Michael __________________ My signature

Sunday 13th July 2003, 16:58	#13
Harry Hussey Registered User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cork,Ireland Posts: 3,804	Hi CJW, Goldeneye don't breed in Ireland either...but they have done on occasion!Maybe the species has bred unknown to you all? Anyway,as Michael said,there is a fair degree of overlap in size between Tufted Duck and Goldeneye,and maybe the Tufteds are on the large side?Pure Bufflehead is TINY,too big for that(and wrong shape).Tail/head certainly point to a goldeneye sp or a hybrid with genes from a goldeneye sp. Harry H

Sunday 13th July 2003, 17:00	#14
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	Michael, yes, let's ignore how steep the forehead is or flat-topped the crown is. It ain't a Goldeneye. __________________ Chris Isle of Man Birding

Sunday 13th July 2003, 17:04	#15
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	You should be able to get good shots this evening with the heat haze gone and the sun behind. (By the way theres a 4x4 track further down so i walked that and didnt need to get ripped to pieces by gorse which was nice.) __________________ http://www.manxbirdphotography.co.uk

Sunday 13th July 2003, 18:19	#17
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	If what I read just then is true about Goldeneye nesting in old Woodpecker nests then we definately would not get breeding Goldeneye. We would need some Woodpeckers first!!!! :) (plus some decent trees of course.) __________________ http://www.manxbirdphotography.co.uk

Sunday 13th July 2003, 18:34	#18
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Hi Peteee, Most of the Scottish Goldeneyes nest in nestboxes! If anyone has got any large boxes (Stock Dove size or larger) up within a mile of fresh water, Goldeneye could use them. Natural tree holes are also OK and do get used. Michael __________________ My signature

Sunday 13th July 2003, 19:10	#19
StevieEvans Forum Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 4,093	? hybrid I agree with Harry, Bufflehead x Goldeneye hybrid looks a good choice, but the raised tail is very prominant........ so it might have a 'touch' of Ring-necked Duck...? As for the Goldeneye size debate, i can't ever remember seeing a Female Goldeneye which was as large as a Tufted Duck. Hope to see more pic's. S

Sunday 13th July 2003, 19:44	#20
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	Sorry folks, couldn't relocate it. Who cares anyway? It was a crappy brown duck!!! Looks like the shrike has finally departed by the way. He left his last meal untouched...... Attached Thumbnails

Sunday 13th July 2003, 21:16	#21
peteh Registered User Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 1,087	Looks like It will be another heinz 57 then. Oh well that will be tick number 2 in my hybrid list then!! :P __________________ http://www.manxbirdphotography.co.uk

Sunday 13th July 2003, 22:09	#22
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Could it be one of those rubber ducks that were on the news yesterday?? Michael __________________ My signature

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