[Tvc15_2000]

This forum is has provided countless hours of enjoyable reading for me and I am sure many others.

There are times when I can not take a larger binocular due to the amount of gear I am hauling or the activity (bicycling, kayaking, hiking, backpacking, traveling, working etc.). The 10x25 of course is no substitute for a larger objective. But small as they are, they can provide lots of binocular enjoyment in reasonable light and are very portable. Due to travel limitations my choices would be 1) Small good quality binocular 2) Nothing!

If anyone has compared the Leica 10x25 Ultravid with the Zeiss 10X25 Victory BT* could you please provide a few constructive comments or impressions on the optical quality of these tiny wonders? I am less concerned with the ergonomics, folding mechanism, focus knob size etc – I am willing to make some sacrifices for the best optical quality I can get in a small package that can deliver good quality
.
I prefer 10x and understand the benefits vs compromises of more magnification (especially in a package of this size). Larger physical size is not possible for the situations I am planning for.

Many Thanks in advance!

[Alexis Powell]

The Leica 10x25 Ultravid is quite a bit better optically than ALL its competition, and is vastly superior to the Zeiss 10x25 Victory (I don't make such proclammations about the premium 2/3 and full-sized binos, where I think each model has its strengths and weaknesses and where there is thus more room for meeting different user preferences). I don't find the Zeiss 10x25 Victory optically impressive, even compared to its 8x20 Victory sibling. I like the 8x20 Victory quite a bit, but the 8x20 Ultravid is much superior in use because it has such a bright, contrasty image. Although I've had more opportunity to compare the 8x20 models of these binos (since I own both), I've spent some time with both 10x Victories and Ultravids, and have noted that like their 8x sibling, the Victories have serious problems with backlighting/flare, both when looking against direct light and against bright overcast skies. Really, the difference between the Ultravid and Victory in these situations (which commonly occur when birding!) is amazing, the Ultravid being vastly superior. Although you said you didn't care so much about ergonomics, the 10x25 Ultravids are outstanding if not the best in this respect. They also focus closer than other premium 10x25 roofs.
--AP

[Nick Elliston]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

This forum is has provided countless hours of enjoyable reading for me and I am sure many others.

There are times when I can not take a larger binocular due to the amount of gear I am hauling or the activity (bicycling, kayaking, hiking, backpacking, traveling, working etc.). The 10x25 of course is no substitute for a larger objective. But small as they are, they can provide lots of binocular enjoyment in reasonable light and are very portable. Due to travel limitations my choices would be 1) Small good quality binocular 2) Nothing!

If anyone has compared the Leica 10x25 Ultravid with the Zeiss 10X25 Victory BT* could you please provide a few constructive comments or impressions on the optical quality of these tiny wonders? I am less concerned with the ergonomics, folding mechanism, focus knob size etc – I am willing to make some sacrifices for the best optical quality I can get in a small package that can deliver good quality
.
I prefer 10x and understand the benefits vs compromises of more magnification (especially in a package of this size). Larger physical size is not possible for the situations I am planning for.

Many Thanks in advance!

I would generally agree with the comments from Alexis although I did not find the difference as great as Alexis stated.

I went through a similar process to you earlier this year and had decided in advance that I wanted 10×25 rather than 8×20/25. I looked through 10×25's a number of times over several weeks in various conditions and every time my first choice was Leica. As the viewing was in January, much of it was in poor light conditions and the Leica performance in poor light was impressive.

Having said that, if there had been a significant price difference between Leica and Zeiss I MIGHT have been persuaded otherwise. It would have to have been a significant price difference though as IMHO the Ultravids really are outstanding.

[Tvc15_2000]

I am having a problem removing the 10X25 from the nylon case. They seem to bind while trying to remove them. Its not a smooth exit. Since they are only a few hours old so I am hoping this is a matter of break in. Any tips or experience in this matter are appreciated.

The 10x25s are a nice addition and fit my needs for a high quality lightweight small objective binocular.

[Lou H]

Be sure to check out the Nikon Premier LX models which are more or less in the same price range. I have an 8x20 that I feel is superior in contrast and brightness to the the Zeiss Vics and Leica Utras.

[trealawboy]

Originally Posted by Lou H

Be sure to check out the Nikon Premier LX models which are more or less in the same price range. I have an 8x20 that I feel is superior in contrast and brightness to the the Zeiss Vics and Leica Utras.

I support this view. The position of the focus wheel may not be to everyone's taste but it's fine for me. I have both 8x20 and 10x25s.

[scampo]

I think - you could email Zeiss and ask - that the newer Victory compacts have the latest coatings that might have brought them into line with the otherwise incomparable Ultravids.

A feature of the Ultravids that sets them apart for some is the front, oversized focusing wheel - it's a delight to use.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

I am having a problem removing the 10X25 from the nylon case. They seem to bind while trying to remove them. Its not a smooth exit. Since they are only a few hours old so I am hoping this is a matter of break in. Any tips or experience in this matter are appreciated.

Yeah, I have the 8x20 Ultravids, which I love, but I found the case very tight at the beginning. I considered popping the bins into an old small camera case instead, but stuck with the Leica case. It´s easier now to take them out (6 months later), but I´m not sure if that´s because the case is "broken in", or because I´ve developed a better knack for taking out the bins. (Stronger right wrist and grip, perhaps..)

[Tvc15_2000]

Originally Posted by Sancho

Yeah, I have the 8x20 Ultravids, which I love, but I found the case very tight at the beginning. I considered popping the bins into an old small camera case instead, but stuck with the Leica case. It´s easier now to take them out (6 months later), but I´m not sure if that´s because the case is "broken in", or because I´ve developed a better knack for taking out the bins. (Stronger right wrist and grip, perhaps..)

Thank you!

I used a crank open shoe stretcher to stretch the nylon case today. I left the shoe stretcher in the case for a few hours and it successfully stretched the nylon enough for the 10x25s to slip in out without so much yanking. I was worried I would damage the binocs the case was so tight. I believe the stretcher will fix my bino fit.

The 10x25s continue to satisfy as ultra portable binocs. They have opened opportunities for me to bird during lunch hour since they fit in my brief case.

I am still comparing them to the Victory 10x25s. If there is a winner between these 2 it is by a slim margin! Both are excellent. Particularity in color rendition (keeping in mind how small they are). The Victory’s seem to emphasize green moss type colors a tiny tad more than the Leicas. Its not a disadvantage or advantage – just a slight difference. I look forward to a lot more viewing time and some high contrast back lit situations.

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

Thank you!

I used a crank open shoe stretcher to stretch the nylon case today. I left the shoe stretcher in the case for a few hours and it successfully stretched the nylon enough for the 10x25s to slip in out without so much yanking. I was worried I would damage the binocs the case was so tight. I believe the stretcher will fix my bino fit.

The 10x25s continue to satisfy as ultra portable binocs.

Thanks for advice, will try. It's a pain eyeballing a flying bird, then grappling with bins and case as bird drifts away. Worse that can happen is I'll tear an easily-replaceable case. Agree 100% with you on the bins, I'm going to attract the opprobrium of many here but I think that even though they're compacts, they serve as all-rounders for most situations, especially if you have a scope with you anyway. Enjoy!

[ceasar]

For those of you with access to Cabela's you should be aware that they are selling some very nice binocular cases under their own name. They come in 3 sizes: Mini (will fit 8 x 20, 10 x 25, Roofs and Reverse Porro's. Medium: Will fit Leica 7 x42 Trinovids with room to spare. And Large: Will fit 50mm binoculars. Prices: 35.00, 45.00 & 55.00. They are thick, firm leather construction. I have the medium version for my 7 x 42's. It's a bit large for them but I think it can be fixed with a bit of foam from a shipping carton.

Bob

[Tvc15_2000]

Another case is a good point. Leather would not be a good choice for me becuase becuase I to get plenty wet all the time (besides I like animals).

The Leica case is probably works just fine for most people. I however am often in situations were as the previous poster noted – I cant use 2 hands or wrestle with the case. A one handed removal is desirable for me. I tried the Leica 10x25s in the Zeiss 10x25 case and they fit perfectly. The Zeiss case closes with Velcro and is easier (for me) with one hand deployment and returning them to the case. Its easier for me because I am able to grasp the side of the binocular body with the Z case. With the L case I am tugging on the neck strap or eye cups. The problem seems to be the strap fitting on the body of the binoculars bind on the case as I remove them – requiring 2 hands 99% of the time and excessive tugging of my beloved binocs.

I am thinking for my needs I will order the Zeiss case for the Leica and use them for those occasions when I need a hasty removal, which is all the time. (B&H has it for $22). I will continue to stretch the Leica case till it fits like an old shoe! Of course if this is all I have to obsess about – life is pretty good!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ughType=search

[Tvc15_2000]

Some images

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesho...e&conn_speed=1

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

Some images

http://www.kodakgallery.com/Slidesho...e&conn_speed=1

I'm pretty sure I know which pair will focus most easily, especially when it's b-r-r-r cold!

[Swissboy]

Originally Posted by scampo

I'm pretty sure I know which pair will focus most easily, especially when it's b-r-r-r cold!

Yes, the Zeiss may be optically just as good, but it's the Ultravids that have the superb ergonomics in all situations on top of it.

[Tracker12]

Originally Posted by Swissboy

Yes, the Zeiss may be optically just as good, but it's the Ultravids that have the superb ergonomics in all situations on top of it.

I have the 10x25 and really like them. They are so good that I often take them times when I could take a full size pair. I did have problems with them. The left side fogged up during a rain storm and they cam out of culimation. Leica covered the repair and I am currently waiting for them to be returned. Hoing they will be as good as new. I would also check out the Swaro there are very nice.

[Tvc15_2000]

My 10X25s are replacing a pair of Pentax 10X28 DCF MP that weigh about a pound. I expected the 10X28 would be brighter since the objective is larger. I was wrong. Both the Leica and Zeiss 10X25 are noticeably brighter (in indoor lamp lighting I can read small print across the room with the Zeiss and Leica but the Pentax are too dark to pass the same test). I consider the Pentax 10x28 a good (but not great) binoc. The Pentax are outperformed on every measure by the smaller lighter higher quality 10x25s which cost 2 & 3 times the price I paid for the Pentax 10X28.

These 10x25s perform as well as bigger binocs in optimal conditions but certainly not in all conditions - but that should be obvious. They are small and light and I have them with me when I would not have a larger binoc. Small binocs perform infinitely better than no binocs. I do use them for birding daily and I am glad I own them. It would be these or nothing. On weekends I use larger binocs if I can carry them on the actives I am doing , otherwise I take the 10x25s, so I tend to use these more than larger binocs

I have owned the Victory’s for about a year and I was curious about the Leica’s since they have such a devoted following. That curiosity led me owing a couple of larger Ultravids and the 25s. I have only had the 10x25 Leica’s several days and am still comparing. Unfortunalty I don’t own the Nikons or Swarvoski and can not compare them too.. I note here points I would have found useful in my choice. Others may find other things to focus on.

My needs are simple – I want the best image I can get in a small package. They have to LIGHTWEIGHT, totally waterproof , rugged, useable in all temperature, deploy easily. Both the Zeiss and Leica’s satisfy my simple needs.

Plenty has been written about the optical virtues of one over the other with claims of superiority from devotees of both brands. In the short time I have been comparing them I find one pair may have a slight advantage in one condition and the other pair has a slight advantage under different conditions. From what I am seeing the difference is only low single digits of percentages in a given area. I see no grounds for one company to claim a major performance break through when compared to the other company. .Others have seen larger differences and they probably have done a lot more testing than me. I do not discount their opinions. I need more testing on my part and I am not an expert! I would not hesitate to recommend either if the ergonomics of one appeal more than the other. That’s how close they are (to me). I alternate using each on different days and find I like the strengths of each when I am using it. I find no serious shortcoming with the Leica and the Zeiss.


Differences I noticed (there are differences others not noted here):

Bridge: The Leica uses a double hinge with a solid bridge. Both barrels of the Leica to swing in and out independently. It works just fine, feels fine in the hands and is a design that is familiar in appearance to many other binoculars of this size. The Zeiss uses a single beefy hinge and an off center split bridge. To me this feels rock solid and give a lightweight binocular an extremely stable feel. The look is not conventional but I understand the design wisdom in real use. The Zeiss feel noticeably more solid than the Leica’s (to me). As I become more accustom to the Leica’s I am starting to enjoy them too. I have nothing to base my opinion on after holding both in my hands I suspect the Zeiss are more rugged due to the design of the single hinge. I have absolutely nothing other than my own opinion and examination to base that comment on. Both feel very good in my hands and perform well. I am not about to dump one for the other. I am keeping them both.

The eye cups: The Leica cups slide in and out with a tug. They are rubber’ery coated. They do not lock in the open position. I have a habit of pressing the eye cups onto the bones in my upper eye sockets and this sometimes slides the eye cups back in! Its not a problem. It is a case of me getting used to them. The Zeiss eye cups are sort of plastic rubbery. They slide out and lock open with a twist (at full extension). I like the locking open. Again, this is a non issue. It’s the owner adjusting to the design.

The Leica focus knob is about 2.75 times wider than the Zeiss knob. The Leica knob is in the center of the bridge the Zeiss is closer to the left side. My assumption is due to different hand sizes and dexterity the focus knob of the Leica is preferred by some. For me it’s a slight advantage on the Leica. The Zeiss knob and focusing has not been a hindrance (even in the dead of winter).

To use the diopter adjustment on the Leica you press a button under the bridge and one barrel focuses while the other stays stable. There is a “gauge” on the front of the large focus knob so you can see the diopter setting. The Zeiss uses a separate knob on the front of the bridge with markings on it. Both systems work well. I set the dipoter correction with my eyes and don’t use the gauge on either. While the Leica has a nice dial guage that has been commented on often I don’t see any real functional advantage of one system over the other.

Focus: I love the actual focus on both. They are both equally precise and seem to be geared about the same in use. But when I measured it was 1 ¼ turns for the Zeiss and 1 ¾ turns for the Leica . For me the focus on both are excellent and easy to fine tune to a crips image. At this time I have used the Zeiss in the dead of winter 0 F / -18 C without a problem. I look forward to using the Leica’s this winter. From what I have read I can expect the same good performance from the Leica’s.

FOV: I accept the narrower FOV on these and feel it is my responsibility to practice with them and become better at finding my target. I purchased these for the small size and not the FOV and it would be silly for me to bitch about it since I went in with both eyes open. The more I use them the more I am on target when I lift them to my eyes. An afternoon tracking hubcaps on moving cars from the side of a highway improved my skills more than a wider FOV.

Viewing comfort: I have used both for long periods of time. The 10x25s are not a problem and are often my only choice. I can’t think of a more comfortable choice in 10X25s, I have not tried the highly rated Nikon LXL 10X25 or Swarovski but I would be happy to compare them for you if you buy them for me! The small exit pupil is not a problem for me (no way around that on a 10X25).

Both the Leica 10x25 Ultravid and Zeiss 10X25 Victory BT* are top notch. In my opinion there is probably only a few percent difference between them in some areas. You may prefer one over the other but probably won’t regret buying either. While I need more time with them under a lot more conditions – At this point I am happy when I pick up either pair. The major difference might be what you prefer. There is currently a $200 difference in price between the Leicas and the Zeiss (New York City area). At this time with my limited experience I could not point to any performance factors that justify the 1/3 price difference.

Before the hormones get the better of you, be aware both binoculars suffer all the limitations and challenges all binoculars suffer from (but to a lesser degree than less costly binoculars). Challenges from back lighting, atmospheric haze, small exit pupils, glare etc are all there , but so is portability and crisp focus and excellent image quality for optics of this size.

I am not trying to blur the differences. Others have seen larger differences than I have. My vision is good and I have several better and worse pairs of binoculars to compare these to. I do find myself frequently observing stationary water birds. usually at a distance, which is why I prefer 10 power. These small binocs provide me with plenty of detail. Under favorable lighting conditions they have a lot in common with larger top performers. But in poor conditions you will wish you had the larger objectives available.

If I had to choose one and only one… I could flip a coin to choose and be happy with the results. Your needs and criteria may elevate one over the other.

I recommend like me you do all the analysis, toss and turn at night and compare the features. Then ignore all that and purchased what your lusting for.

[scampo]

A good report and review - thanks for posting it. But I had to smile at one of your comments:

"Both the Zeiss and Leica’s satisfy my simple needs."

What would our parents and grandparents think of your term "simple". My how things change!

[Common Raven]

Tvc15_2000, thanks for the thorough comparison.

I was wondering, would you be able to comment on the strap for each? Also, what about lens covers?

[Tvc15_2000]

Both Leica and Zeiss use the typical 3 bar sliders to attach the straps. In addition to a free sliding sleeve to keep the doubled portions organized. I don’t trust 3 bar sliders on any of my binoculars since I once almost dropped a pair when the end slipped out of the slider. Since then I fold over the end of the strap and sew it with a few stitches so their is no way it can slide out.

The Zeiss neck strap made our of black nylon weave. Very thin, lightweight and supple. No neoprene. It is about 3/16 (of an inch) wide on the entire length. The Leica strap is has 3/16 wide ends with a middle portion that is about ½ inch wide. Black nylon weave no neoprene. The Leica strap appeals to me more because of the wide portion from a design aspect. In my mind I see a benefit – but not in actual use!

Both straps provide equal comfort (for me) with a shirt on, I have not done bare neck briding yet but I don’t expect a chafing problem because these wonderful binoculars are so light weight. They do not cut into your neck. They are a pleasure to carry for long periods of time. I walk for an hour at work daily and I am often not aware I have the binoculars on. But its not summer with a no collar shirt. There are many after market straps available if these are not to your liking One advantage of the nylon strap that comes with these binoculars is you can store the binoculars and strap in the nylon binocular case because the straps are so compact.

The Zeiss did not come with any caps. The Leica come with individual exit pupil caps. They are hard black plastic with a potrusion for the strap to go through. They attach individualy to the strap and are removed or placed over the exit pupil one at a time. They hang out of the way when not in use. I do not use them and I do not miss caps on the Ziess. When the binocs are not in use I remove them from my neck and place them in the case.

The cases are both sturdy padded nylon and protect the binocs very well. The Zeiss closes with Velcro and the binoculars ride horizontally on a/your waist belt. The Leica’s ride vertically on a/your waist belt. I have previously stated I prefer the Zeiss case because removal with one hand is easy with the Velcro and case design. I find the Leica case requires 2 hands (for me). I am adjusting to that too. It would be possible to use the Leica case with the neck strap on your neck if that level of protection is required. I have not tried that with the Zeiss case since it works best for me on my waist belt. I doubt anyone but me would would be dissatisfied with either case!

[Tvc15_2000]

Originally Posted by scampo

What would our parents and grandparents think of your term "simple". My how things change!

Thank You Steve.

My grandparents, my parents, friends and the people I prefer as friends, are very happy I chose to purchase several pairs of good binoculars over a “good” wide screen high def TV (which would cost less than my binocs). They are pleased, and so am I that I chose the outdoors in the worst possible weather appreciating nature and birding rather than sitting on my ass in front of a TV, slack jawed, fat and happy with drool coming out of the corner of my mouth while being barraged with constant commercials!

In fact many of my friends join me on a regular basis in increasing numbers. The worse the weather is the more they thank me for bringing them outside to enjoy it. It is one of the things that makes my life worth living. One of my simple needs is truly high quality, lightweight waterproof binoculars and I am quite content about my priorities !

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

Thank You Steve.

My grandparents, my parents, friends and the people I prefer as friends, are very happy I chose to purchase several pairs of good binoculars over a “good” wide screen high def TV (which would cost less than my binocs). They are pleased, and so am I that I chose the outdoors in the worst possible weather appreciating nature and birding rather than sitting on my ass in front of a TV, slack jawed, fat and happy with drool coming out of the corner of my mouth while being barraged with constant commercials!

In fact many of my friends join me on a regular basis in increasing numbers. The worse the weather is the more they thank me for bringing them outside to enjoy it. It is one of the things that makes my life worth living. One of my simple needs is truly high quality, lightweight waterproof binoculars and I am quite content about my priorities !

I wasn't being at all critical - indeed I applaud your priorities. I was just thinking (as an English teacher) how we use the same language today that has been used for generations - but with a rather different meaning or inference, if you see what I mean.

[Tvc15_2000]

I agree. I understood your point. I just did not want to miss an opportunity to encourage myself to use my binoculars and justify my decision (to myself)!

[scampo]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

I agree. I understood your point. I just did not want to miss an opportunity to encourage myself to use my binoculars and justify my decision (to myself)!

(-;

I thought it was one of those occasions when email communication had partly failed to communicate - as it can, even though we both speak near identical varieties of English!

[Sancho]

Originally Posted by Tvc15_2000

Thank You Steve.

My grandparents, my parents, friends and the people I prefer as friends, are very happy I chose to purchase several pairs of good binoculars over a “good” wide screen high def TV (which would cost less than my binocs). They are pleased, and so am I that I chose the outdoors in the worst possible weather appreciating nature and birding rather than sitting on my ass in front of a TV, slack jawed, fat and happy with drool coming out of the corner of my mouth while being barraged with constant commercials!

In fact many of my friends join me on a regular basis in increasing numbers. The worse the weather is the more they thank me for bringing them outside to enjoy it. It is one of the things that makes my life worth living. One of my simple needs is truly high quality, lightweight waterproof binoculars and I am quite content about my priorities !

Excellent! Mind if I quote you next time my better half chastises me for my (to her) inexplicably large bins collection? I used to feel guilty. But your point is excellent. It really is one factor that makes life worthwhile, as you say, and it´s a relatively simple need compared to the requirements of many other more mainstream activities, about which eyelids would remain comparatively unbatted!