[tittletattler]

I took the following set of images today at 3.30pm in the fading light at Littlebrook near Dartford. The bird was quite distant so apologies for the poor quality of the images. The bird was constantly preening and I was at the mercy of the 3 second timer at 1/8th of a second.

The wing coverts appear to be juvenile whilst the mantle and scapulars have undergone much moult. In one of the pics three (of the few) black spots can be seen on an other wise white based tail. Most important (I think) is that the underwing was almost white with very few markings. This is probably better for a 2nd year bird? Assuming that it is a Caspian, of course.

Comments welcome.

[Stéphane Aubry]

Hi Andrew,

Your bird looks good for a 2nd winter :

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/71560976

http://www.pbase.com/stephaubry/image/71560983

Best regards

Stéphane

[Youngbirder18]

Agreed, looks good.

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by Youngbirder18

Agreed, looks good.

Thanks Marc (and Josh on the other gull thread).

Also thanks Stephane. Your bird shows a lot of moulted wing coverts - how much variation is there between individuals?

Cheers,

Andy.

[JANJ]

Hi Andy.

Check those spindly legs!
As mentioned, it appears to be a Caspian Gull (we actually dont see the bill well enough) and a 2cy, which at this time of year would has completed it´s first complete moult in to 2nd winter, body, and all wing coverts, tertials and primaries renewed second generation. It should be noted that some individuals can have a delayed moult which means a variable amount of retained coverts and tertials, then recognizable on worn appearance and, if not to worn, on different pattern. There are variation among individuals. As an excample of a 1cy and a 2cy (both on 27.11) to notice the difference in tertial, covert and bill pattern:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...large/3691.jpg

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...large/3690.jpg

and two 2cy, both from 14.12, and notice the different bill pattern, the black-billed most probably a female:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/26121.jpg

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/26120.jpg

and here:

http://www.elisanet.fi/antero.lindho...ki/caceHko.htm

Nice find Andy!

JanJ

[marklhawkes]

Originally Posted by andrew lawson

I took the following set of images today at 3.30pm in the fading light at Littlebrook near Dartford. The bird was quite distant so apologies for the poor quality of the images. The bird was constantly preening and I was at the mercy of the 3 second timer at 1/8th of a second.

The wing coverts appear to be juvenile whilst the mantle and scapulars have undergone much moult. In one of the pics three (of the few) black spots can be seen on an other wise white based tail. Most important (I think) is that the underwing was almost white with very few markings. This is probably better for a 2nd year bird? Assuming that it is a Caspian, of course.

Comments welcome.

Agreed. 2nd-winter Caspian (quite a nice one too). Caspians moult sooner than other gulls, thus appearing a little more advanced than other gulls of the same age.

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by JANJ

Hi Andy.
Check those spindly legs!

Mine or the bird's?

Thanks Janj and Mark. I must say that this gull stuff is very addictive. I also can't believe just how little I knew just a few weeks ago and I even like the fact that I still have a long, long way to go. Should make for an interesting winter.

OK. I took these images two weeks ago and they are the only ones that I have of this particular bird. I waited for the bird to move, got bored, looked away, looked back and it had gone.

I emailed these pics to two people who know far more about gulls than myself. One said '1st winter Caspian' and the other said 'Lesser Black backed Gull' due to the small rounded looking head and general jizz.

I think Caspian based on the paleness of the underparts and the advanced moult on the upperparts amongst other features.

What do you guys think?

[marklhawkes]

Originally Posted by andrew lawson

I emailed these pics to two people who know far more about gulls than myself. One said '1st winter Caspian' and the other said 'Lesser Black backed Gull' due to the small rounded looking head and general jizz.

I think Caspian based on the paleness of the underparts and the advanced moult on the upperparts amongst othet features.

What do you guys think?

Hard to be sure from that angle. I'm thinking more along the lines of michahellis (Yellow-legged Gull).

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by marklhawkes

Hard to be sure from that angle. I'm thinking more along the lines of michahellis (Yellow-legged Gull).

Indeed the angle doesn't help. But the bird is in quite advanced moult on the mantle/scapulars; too much for a 1st winter Michahellis? Wouldn't some 'double-anchors' still be on show?

Is the 'eye-shadow' a Michahellis feature?

[marklhawkes]

Originally Posted by andrew lawson

Indeed the angle doesn't help. But the bird is in quite advanced moult on the mantle/scapulars; too much for a 1st winter Michahellis? Wouldn't some 'double-anchors' still be on show?

Is the 'eye-shadow' a Michahellis feature?

Yes, the eye shadow is a Mich feature. The bill seems too think set for a Caspian, and the eye looks too large. The legs also seem quite thick.

In all honesty, I'm struggeling to be sure on this bird. May be it's a 2nd-winter Mich (a little less advanced than most though), but the coverts look like that of a 1st-winter (1cy)!

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by marklhawkes

Yes, the eye shadow is a Mich feature. The bill seems too think set for a Caspian, and the eye looks too large. The legs also seem quite thick.

In all honesty, I'm struggeling to be sure on this bird. May be it's a 2nd-winter Mich (a little less advanced than most though), but the coverts look like that of a 1st-winter (1cy)!

Thanks Mark. I agree with what you have said. Basically I decided that it must be a Caspian based upon the wing coverts and the upperpart moult. I trawled Surfbirds and other sites and I did find a couple of other birds labelled as Caspian that were similar. I can post them to you directly if you like.

Are there any discernable differences between male and female birds at this age?

Glad I found a better candidate today!

[josh jones]

Originally Posted by andrew lawson

Are there any discernable differences between male and female birds at this age?

Isn't size of the bird and also bill size useful in sexing?

Also pretty new to this gull stuff....

[JANJ]

Hi all.

Struggling with the last gull. The covers looks 1cy (juvenile) and we only see the front region, which means that if there are any 2nd generation coverts in the rear region, we can´t see those. The upper scapulars looks rather uniform (we dont see the rest)but there are small dark markings shaped like a shaft streak with a small dark subterminal mark, like this one:

http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...icture_id=8553.

Or is it simply a Yellow-legged. Plain mantle, if the rtest of upperparts where the same, and complete 1cy coverts is not unique, but upperparts usually more marked in 1cy.

So, From these images I´m not able to give a positive ID, but I´m fairly sure that it´s not a LBBG, to pale grey for that.

JanJ

[tittletattler]

Again thanks Janj & Josh.

I found four more Caspian Gulls in Dartford today. This could become a regular feature so long as the good people of Dartford keep producing too much rubbish for the recycling centre to be able to clear during the week.

I photographed both the adults and a 1st winter but the 2nd winter disappeared before I could get any shots. A large female sparrowhawk kept spooking all the gulls which didn't help!

The 1st winter looks just like the plate in Olsen & Larsson (I've borrowed a copy). A beautiful looking bird.

Pics are attached. Any useful comments regarding the ID would be appreciated.

[marklhawkes]

Originally Posted by andrew lawson

The 1st winter looks just like the plate in Olsen & Larsson (I've borrowed a copy). A beautiful looking bird.

Pics are attached. Any useful comments regarding the ID would be appreciated.

A splendid first-winter bird. I'm not too sure about the adult though. The bill looks all wrong, and the bird has alot of head streaking. Generally the jizz doesn't strike me as being right for a Caspian. What to others think?

[Steve Lister]

Are there both adults in the four shots? Or just one of them? I must admt that none of them shout Caspian at me: the extensive head-streaking looks wrong, the bill shape looks more like Herring Gull, and the head shape is not right either.

Steve

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by Steve Lister

Are there both adults in the four shots? Or just one of them? I must admt that none of them shout Caspian at me: the extensive head-streaking looks wrong, the bill shape looks more like Herring Gull, and the head shape is not right either.

Steve

Both birds are in those shots. Both birds were easy to pick out due to their smaller heads and beady, small, jet black eyes. I also thought that the bills were thinner and straighter than on those of the adjacent Herrings. Are these features not sound then? If so, what else should I look for as from what I have read so far the ID of Adults seems a little subjective.

[DEREK CHARLES]

Hello Andrew,

well done on the two 1st winters fantastic looking gulls. The gull in post 6 i think is a yellow legged (michahellis). adult herring gulls with dark eyes are not uncommon as are herrings with small heads and long bills. here is a dark eyed bird from the weekend. I think the adult birds are all herrings.keep looking however it looks as though you have found a great local patch for gulls!

regards

Derek

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by DEREK CHARLES

Hello Andrew,
well done on the two 1st winters fantastic looking gulls. The gull in post 6 i think is a yellow legged (michahellis). adult herring gulls with dark eyes are not uncommon as are herrings with small heads and long bills. here is a dark eyed bird from the weekend. I think the adult birds are all herrings.keep looking however it looks as though you have found a great local patch for gulls!
regards
Derek

Thanks Derek.

Can I take comfort from assuming that I won't be the last person to believe that all small, black beady eyed Gulls are Caspian? So what are the features that I should be looking for? I feel that the birds I photographed are smaller eyed and straighter billed than your bird for example, so other pointers would be helpful for identifying birds on the ground.

I have always thought that the Dartford area should be good for Caspian Gulls as we have the rubbish tip across the river at Rainham in Essex for starters and Yellow Legged Gulls have reached triple figures along this stretch of the Thames. A good number of birds often loaf about on the Thames foreshore although access to see them is difficult and the area is becoming more dangerous due to lack of policing and the resulting general lawlessness etc. So the boom in recycling is of great benefit as the over worked recycling centre is right next to a couple of flooded fields, a gravel pit and a main road with a few handy laybys to park in and view. Great if you have a 1 year old son asleep in the back of the car!

[DEREK CHARLES]

Hello Andrew,
Do not worry i have made many many mistakes with large gulls and now work on the theory "assume nothing!"
I have never seen an adult Caspian so i am not probably not the best person to ask, maybe Stephane or Jan will fill in the blanks but i would be concentrateing on the birds structure,white headed appearance, bill,eyes, legs and primary pattern.
If you look at the first pic of the adult with dark eyes and compare it with the adult behind you will see that head and bill are virtually identical.
Check Stephanes website for pics of Caspians and you will see how the majority of them stand out and of course keep looking and photographing as many birds as possible and we look forward to seeing a few on here!

Regards

Derek

[JANJ]

Hi all.

As Derek and others has suggested the adults in the last set of pic. looks like Herring Gulls. I can though see your point, in the dark small eyed look of the two of course lead you towards Caspian. However small dark eye is not enough to identify a Caspian since there are the occasionally dark, and small eyed Herring, as mentioned by Derek. Adult Caspian has head and neck streaking in winter (approx. July-Nov)spots and streaks on hindneck and nape, limited and fine streaks around the eyes and crown. The bill shape is not so good for Caspian, although the bill often is sort of classic long looking (males), slender and parralel edged with a weak gonys-angle and gently drooping tip: (notice the pale iris)

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/26122.jpg

there are exceptions, stouter (thicker), with less gently drooping tip and stronger gonys-angle, which would be possible males, that are bigger, not nesecarily longer-billed:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...large/6613.jpg
compared to females which at times looks really gentle and with a rounded head:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/26121.jpg

As with many tricky species you have to see as many characters as possible, so the best way to 'catch' a chachinnans is by the often characteristic jizz and call (as also noted in 'Gulls' (which BTW you sould have a copy of your own Andy!), together with primary pattern which can be seen when the gull raises it´s wings, which they often do.

Check these:

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/25070.jpg

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/25068.jpg

http://www.artportalen.se/artportale...arge/25069.jpg

Here the p10 pattern whith it´s all white tip and long pale tongue can be seen in a few good pic.

http://www.gull-watching.com/album-127428.html

JanJ

[cajanuma]

Hi Andrew,

nice thread! The bird in post 6 is pretty interesting, on plumage it really looks like a 1cy Caspian: the coverts I think establish the age as 1cy whether it is michaellis or cachinnans, and plumage-wise, at least here in Italy, I think it would be very unusual for a 1cy michaellis to show so many pale gray scapulars in December. The very pale head, parallel longitudinal streaking on the nape, and white underparts also point to cachinnans rather than michaellis.

As others have commented however structure seems like a better match for michaellis, especially the thick, relatively short legs. I'm not sure about the head/bill shape, it really looks much better for michaellis on the third photo, though the middle photo seems to show a bill shape that could be OK for cachinnans. Still, even the third photo is perhaps not outside the range of variation for large male cachinnans?

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by cajanuma

Hi Andrew,

nice thread! The bird in post 6 is pretty interesting

Thanks. I'm not entirely sure if highlighting my own gull ignorance is a good idea but this and other 'gull' threads have proved extremely useful. I'm grateful to all.

That gull is very interesting. I think you've summed up the sentiments of all the contributors so far in your post. All I would add is that the body of the gull could be hiding a proportion of the legs which may make them look shorter than they are. I also think that you're right to point out that the bill (and head?) shape looks more Caspian like where the bird has it's head held at a slight angle.

[tittletattler]

Originally Posted by JANJ

Hi all.
which BTW you sould have a copy of your own Andy

Thanks Janj. I will certainly spend some time over Christmas studying these and other gull links. Again, many thanks.

I do have my own copy of 'gulls' but unfortunately I can't look at it until the 25th.

[tittletattler]

Last post for tonight.

How many species are in this shot?