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Andrew · Saturday 23rd August 2003, 20:52

Hello folks, am I right in thinking this is a Common Hawker as opposed to a Migrant Hawker?

CJW · Sunday 24th August 2003, 13:48

I had to take a few liberties to confirm the i.d. Andrew but yes, it's a Common Hawker:

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 14:50

That's great, did you use Photoshp elements and what did you do?

Adey Baker · Sunday 24th August 2003, 15:16

I'm not familiar with Common Hawker but this looks like a Migrant Hawker to me.

1: It appears (just visible) to have the yellow triangle on segment two

2: Comon Hawker should have yellow antehumeral stripes

I've attached a shot of Migrant Hawker, taken today, below (this was also hanging from a thin branch).

Hope this is of help

Anybody got any Common Hawker shots for comparison?

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 16:56

Good shot and thanks for showing it.

Pie Face · Sunday 24th August 2003, 17:31

I agree with Adey, Migrant Hawker. They tend to show a fondness for trees.
Mark

Surreybirder · Sunday 24th August 2003, 18:06

Common hawker has a prominent yellow costa
There is a good pic at the British Dragonfly Society web site... enter site and then click on UK Species in left-hand column
http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/frameset.htm?home&home
There's also a brilliant European site for those who haven't come across it:
http://www.student.io.tudelft.nl/io335601/
I'm sure Redwing has some good pix on his site too.

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:03

Getting a bit confused here, are you agreeing my pic is a Migrant or Adey's pic?

Is mine definitely a Common, that is what I believe it is.

cjay · Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:26

We are getting very late for Common Hawker. I would go with Migrant or Southern Hawker.

Colin.

harry eales · Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:57

Hi Andrew. your excellent picture is a Migrant Hawker which are starting to reach peak emergence at the moment. It is not too late for Common Hawker either, depending where you are in Britain it can be seen well into October. However, this is a very early year as far as insect emergence is concerned with most species of Butterfly, Moth and Dragonflies being on the wing some three weeks earlier than usual.

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:31

Many thanks, better go to File Manager and change the file name.

Admittedly my picture is quite poor, I was shooting about 80 degrees upwards as it was in a thorny (Hawthorn/Buckthorn) tree and there was a lot of blue sky behind. That reduces the clarity of the mixed colours but I stared hard enough and they are there.

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:39

Hi Andrew, I know the feeling. I was watching a dragonfly darting around today, but between the shadows and bright sun backlight I didn't have a hope in hell of recognising it my books. All I remember was it was about 4inches long and fat enough for a good meal LOL So you did very well just to get a recognisable shot

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:42

Was yours black and blue or greeny blue, if so then might be Emperor?

CJW · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:44

Whoops! looks like I screwed up again - ofcourse it's a Migrant Hawker. I really should pay attention to what I'm typing rather than what i think I'm typing!!!!

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:46

Daft as it sounds I think black & yellowish?

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:46

Gosh, sounds like Golden Ringed or summat like that. There are a few in Devon.

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:53

Alas I'm not 100%, and the other strange thing it is was in a graveyard and theres only a very small stream nearby. Don't usually see any dragonflies there, just butterflies, moths, rabbits, magpies, sparrows & crows, with buzzards overhead. Was very enjoyable watching it though.

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:58

Tony, try this link. http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/frameset.htm?home&home

Click UK SPECIES then scroll down to Cordulegaster boltonii and click that.

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 21:17

Hi Andrew, many thanks I've added that site to favourites.

The nearest I can find does seem to look like a "Golden Ringed" as you suggested. I'm still not 100% sure though, so I'll keep my eyes open in future in case anything like it appears again.

Typical that it was moving around so fast in and out of different lighting that I decided not to bother trying to get a shot.

Surreybirder · Sunday 24th August 2003, 21:51

The only Cordulegasters (ie golden ringed and related species) I've ever seen were in Switzerland near an almost dried out mountain stream. So I think that the lack of water would not necessarily rule out golden-ringed.

On my pc, the first pix--Andrew's--are not very clear but they are certainly not common hawker. I think I would be able to see the antehumeral stripes on a southern hawker, so I'd go with migrant hawker.
Adey's migrant hawker is superb, showing all the relevant field marks of the male (short, almost insignificant) antehumeral stripes, yellow 'nail' marking at base of abdomen, lack of yellow costas (ie the leading veins on the wings).
I've not seen a migrant hawker for sure this year... I've had several hawkers flying above our garden but they are really hard to identify in flight!
(Except for brown hawker which has distinctly reddish brown wings.)

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:02

Tony, Golden Ringed has been seen at the Borrow Pit in Seaton Marshes which is why I said they had been seen in Devon.

Surreybirder, it was difficult to see as it flew about a lot and it was about ten minutes before I got the chance to take a pic.

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:20

Hi Andrew,

It's not you I'm doubting, it's my luck. I only have a passing interest in dragonflies (although they are beautiful) and know very little about them.

I've now found the Golden Ringed in one of my guides and it says (rightly or wrongly) that there are no similar ones. So it's looking like your spot on.

Tony

Andrew · Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:45

No, you have as much right to see anything others have not seen. Might be a good idea to email them. Let us know how it goes.

Tony_InDevon · Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:48

Hi Andrew LOL you caught me in the middle of editing, didn't read right first time. I'll Email the link and let you know what happens. Many thanks.

Surreybirder · Monday 25th August 2003, 08:22

Andrew, I wasn't meaning to sound critical of your photo. I was just explaining why I found it hard to be absolutely sure it wasn't a southern hawker.
BTW there's a good dragonflies-UK yahoogroup for anyone who's interested. I've had ID help from members of that.

Saturday 23rd August 2003, 20:52	#1
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Common Hawker? Hello folks, am I right in thinking this is a Common Hawker as opposed to a Migrant Hawker? Attached Thumbnails __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 13:48	#2
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	I had to take a few liberties to confirm the i.d. Andrew but yes, it's a Common Hawker: Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris Isle of Man Birding

Sunday 24th August 2003, 14:50	#3
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	That's great, did you use Photoshp elements and what did you do? __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 15:16	#4
Adey Baker Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hinckley, Leics Posts: 4,761	I'm not familiar with Common Hawker but this looks like a Migrant Hawker to me. 1: It appears (just visible) to have the yellow triangle on segment two 2: Comon Hawker should have yellow antehumeral stripes I've attached a shot of Migrant Hawker, taken today, below (this was also hanging from a thin branch). Hope this is of help Anybody got any Common Hawker shots for comparison? Attached Thumbnails
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Sunday 24th August 2003, 16:56	#5
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Good shot and thanks for showing it. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 17:31	#6
Pie Face Registered User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Republic of South Yorkshire Posts: 1,627	I agree with Adey, Migrant Hawker. They tend to show a fondness for trees. Mark

Sunday 24th August 2003, 18:06	#7
Surreybirder Ken Noble Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SE Surrey Posts: 8,022 My location	Common hawker has a prominent yellow costa There is a good pic at the British Dragonfly Society web site... enter site and then click on UK Species in left-hand column http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/frameset.htm?home&home There's also a brilliant European site for those who haven't come across it: http://www.student.io.tudelft.nl/io335601/ I'm sure Redwing has some good pix on his site too. __________________ Finally caught up with our local waxwing: http://www.wildlife-galleries.co.uk/...x-IMG_0574-800 Last edited by Surreybirder : Sunday 24th August 2003 at 18:09.

Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:03	#8
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Getting a bit confused here, are you agreeing my pic is a Migrant or Adey's pic? Is mine definitely a Common, that is what I believe it is. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:26	#9
cjay Forum Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 1,689	We are getting very late for Common Hawker. I would go with Migrant or Southern Hawker. Colin.

Sunday 24th August 2003, 19:57	#10
harry eales Ancient Entomologist Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Low Westwood, Durham. England. Posts: 4,632	Hi Andrew. your excellent picture is a Migrant Hawker which are starting to reach peak emergence at the moment. It is not too late for Common Hawker either, depending where you are in Britain it can be seen well into October. However, this is a very early year as far as insect emergence is concerned with most species of Butterfly, Moth and Dragonflies being on the wing some three weeks earlier than usual. __________________ No living thing was hurt in the writing and sending of this post. However, several billion electrons got very aggitated.

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:31	#11
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Many thanks, better go to File Manager and change the file name. Admittedly my picture is quite poor, I was shooting about 80 degrees upwards as it was in a thorny (Hawthorn/Buckthorn) tree and there was a lot of blue sky behind. That reduces the clarity of the mixed colours but I stared hard enough and they are there. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:39	#12
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Hi Andrew, I know the feeling. I was watching a dragonfly darting around today, but between the shadows and bright sun backlight I didn't have a hope in hell of recognising it my books. All I remember was it was about 4inches long and fat enough for a good meal LOL So you did very well just to get a recognisable shot __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:42	#13
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Was yours black and blue or greeny blue, if so then might be Emperor? __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:44	#14
CJW Hit-and-run WUM Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Isle of Man Posts: 4,793	Whoops! looks like I screwed up again - ofcourse it's a Migrant Hawker. I really should pay attention to what I'm typing rather than what i think I'm typing!!!! __________________ Chris Isle of Man Birding

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:46	#15
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Daft as it sounds I think black & yellowish? __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:53	#17
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Alas I'm not 100%, and the other strange thing it is was in a graveyard and theres only a very small stream nearby. Don't usually see any dragonflies there, just butterflies, moths, rabbits, magpies, sparrows & crows, with buzzards overhead. Was very enjoyable watching it though. __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

Sunday 24th August 2003, 20:58	#18
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Tony, try this link. http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/frameset.htm?home&home Click UK SPECIES then scroll down to Cordulegaster boltonii and click that. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 21:17	#19
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Hi Andrew, many thanks I've added that site to favourites. The nearest I can find does seem to look like a "Golden Ringed" as you suggested. I'm still not 100% sure though, so I'll keep my eyes open in future in case anything like it appears again. Typical that it was moving around so fast in and out of different lighting that I decided not to bother trying to get a shot. __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

Sunday 24th August 2003, 21:51	#20
Surreybirder Ken Noble Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SE Surrey Posts: 8,022 My location	The only Cordulegasters (ie golden ringed and related species) I've ever seen were in Switzerland near an almost dried out mountain stream. So I think that the lack of water would not necessarily rule out golden-ringed. On my pc, the first pix--Andrew's--are not very clear but they are certainly not common hawker. I think I would be able to see the antehumeral stripes on a southern hawker, so I'd go with migrant hawker. Adey's migrant hawker is superb, showing all the relevant field marks of the male (short, almost insignificant) antehumeral stripes, yellow 'nail' marking at base of abdomen, lack of yellow costas (ie the leading veins on the wings). I've not seen a migrant hawker for sure this year... I've had several hawkers flying above our garden but they are really hard to identify in flight! (Except for brown hawker which has distinctly reddish brown wings.) __________________ Finally caught up with our local waxwing: http://www.wildlife-galleries.co.uk/...x-IMG_0574-800

Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:02	#21
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	Tony, Golden Ringed has been seen at the Borrow Pit in Seaton Marshes which is why I said they had been seen in Devon. Surreybirder, it was difficult to see as it flew about a lot and it was about ten minutes before I got the chance to take a pic. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:20	#22
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Hi Andrew, It's not you I'm doubting, it's my luck. I only have a passing interest in dragonflies (although they are beautiful) and know very little about them. I've now found the Golden Ringed in one of my guides and it says (rightly or wrongly) that there are no similar ones. So it's looking like your spot on. Tony __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind." Last edited by Tony_InDevon : Sunday 24th August 2003 at 23:46.

Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:45	#23
Andrew wibble wibble Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Devon. UK. Posts: 11,364	No, you have as much right to see anything others have not seen. Might be a good idea to email them. Let us know how it goes. __________________ Are you listening to the voice that talks in your head while you read this?

Sunday 24th August 2003, 23:48	#24
Tony_InDevon Bird Lover & People Photographer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: South Devon, UK Posts: 313	Hi Andrew LOL you caught me in the middle of editing, didn't read right first time. I'll Email the link and let you know what happens. Many thanks. __________________ Tony in South Devon "An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind."

Monday 25th August 2003, 08:22	#25
Surreybirder Ken Noble Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SE Surrey Posts: 8,022 My location	Andrew, I wasn't meaning to sound critical of your photo. I was just explaining why I found it hard to be absolutely sure it wasn't a southern hawker. BTW there's a good dragonflies-UK yahoogroup for anyone who's interested. I've had ID help from members of that. __________________ Finally caught up with our local waxwing: http://www.wildlife-galleries.co.uk/...x-IMG_0574-800

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