[Black Wheatear]

I am becoming increasingly frustrated by unilateral and arbiteral decisions to re-name species!! How rediculous for example is White-tailed Black Wheatear to anyone who has either studied or seen this bird? Why change Alpine Swift latin from Apus???? So it is not a member of the Swift family?? For fellow academics, how many of you agree with these changes? I understand of course changes to incorrect gramatical latin, but why oh why change the English names? God I hate these arbitory changes, who are these people?

[cuckooroller]

Hi Peter,
I understand the frustration! Apparently, the intent is to simplify things, but it might be an international conspiracy put together just to drive us all bonkers!!!

[Gastronaut]

It wouldn't really matter, we could all safely ignore this pointless academic nonsense if only county recorders and national publications weren't so quick to jump on the bandwagon. Has any county society actually consulted its members before changing all the names in its annual report? How many, like Cornwall (UK), have been left with an embarassing legacy such as rushing to adopt the new name Black Scoter for Common Scoter and then publishing a couple of annual reports saying Black Scoter were common only for there to be a subsequent split and Black Scoter returns to the status of never having been recorded.
I think the real driver behind all this is supposed to be to have international standard names, but isn't that what the scientific (latin) names are already for?

[Edward woodwood]

Which name changes are we on about?

Apus is a genus. There are other genera of swifts. I'm not sure what the problem is there. There are usually good reasons for name changes. OBC published a checklist a few years ago with standardised English names as many were grammatically wrong - in English or Latin. Blue-eared Pheasants 9as were) are not blue eared. They are Eared Pheasants and they are blue etc. Granted, some changes though are perhaps stretching things a bit.

For pedantic academics - Allan Octavian Hume named Mrs Hume's Pheasant after his wife but the crafty bugger gave it a masculine latin name.

[Barred Wobbler]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

Which name changes are we on about?

Apus is a genus. There are other genera of swifts. I'm not sure what the problem is there. There are usually good reasons for name changes. OBC published a checklist a few years ago with standardised English names as many were grammatically wrong - in English or Latin. Blue-eared Pheasants 9as were) are not blue eared. They are Eared Pheasants and they are blue etc. Granted, some changes though are perhaps stretching things a bit.

For pedantic academics - Allan Octavian Hume named Mrs Hume's Pheasant after his wife but the crafty bugger gave it a masculine latin name.

What's wrong with Blue Eared Pheasants, without the hyphen? Or if they are keen on double barrels, Blue Eared-pheasant?

(Er, what are they now, by the way? I confess to not knowing these things)

[Edward woodwood]

Originally Posted by Alan Seaton

What's wrong with Blue Eared Pheasants, without the hyphen? Or if they are keen on double barrels, Blue Eared-pheasant?

(Er, what are they now, by the way? I confess to not knowing these things)

Blue Eared Pheasant now

hyphens are grammatically incorrect as in Eared-pheasant.

Something about adjectival nouns

Tim

[Barred Wobbler]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

Blue Eared Pheasant now

hyphens are grammatically incorrect as in Eared-pheasant.

Something about adjectival nouns

Tim

In that case Tim they will be pleased to hear that I for one agree with this name change. A hyphen is inappropriate in this case.

Mind, most of the other name changes get on by proverbials.

[John Cantelo]

Originally Posted by Tim Allwood

Blue Eared Pheasant now

hyphens are grammatically incorrect as in Eared-pheasant.

Something about adjectival nouns

Tim

Please don't tell me that some bright spark wants us to call 'em "Beeeaters" rather than Bee-eaters"!

John

[Colin Key]

Lapland Longspur (Calcarius lapponicus) and Zitting Cisticoloa (Cisticola juncidis) are the two names which I REFUSE to use. Fan-tailed Warblers (which I see every day of my life) are beautiful birds with a most descriptive name. They deserve better than to be re-named after some skin complaint endemic amongst Dixon's shop assistants.

Colin

[Black Wheatear]

Absolutely Colin! It's alright for Tim, but someone has to go to N.Africa and paint out the black central tail feathers in the opening species of Wheatear in this thread! Had to chuckle at John's remark, given some of the previous changes you really might believe this has been considered!!

[screaming piha]

Originally Posted by John Cantelo

Please don't tell me that some bright spark wants us to call 'em "Beeeaters" rather than Bee-eaters"!

John

Don't even joke about it: I was editing for a US publisher who suggested this very thing. For real. Another editor at the same publisher asked me "how old is the Ancient Murrelet?". I just love that.

The worst name change for me is Black Vulture to Monk Vulture to avoid confusion with the carrion-eating stork of the same name in the Western Hemisphere.

On the other hand, I approve of Zitting Cisticola. Except that it makes this dreary bird with the worst song of any bird sound quite interesting. Real Fan-tailed Warblers live in the Americas and are smart birds.

[Jos Stratford]

Originally Posted by Colin Key

... Zitting Cisticoloa (Cisticola juncidis) are the two names which I REFUSE to use. Fan-tailed Warblers (which I see every day of my life) are beautiful birds with a most descriptive name. They deserve better than to be re-named after some skin complaint endemic amongst Dixon's shop assistants.

Except they belong to a massive family of cisticolas all of which seem happy enough with the name, Fan-tailed Warbler seems the bit of the oddity when in an area with numerous cisticola and only one does not carry the name. That said, in Europe i call it Fan-tailed Warbler, elsewhere my reports would usually carry the Zitting Cisticola tag

[Barred Wobbler]

Originally Posted by jdj

Don't even joke about it: I was editing for a US publisher who suggested this very thing. For real. Another editor at the same publisher asked me "how old is the Ancient Murrelet?". I just love that.

The worst name change for me is Black Vulture to Monk Vulture to avoid confusion with the carrion-eating stork of the same name in the Western Hemisphere.

On the other hand, I approve of Zitting Cisticola. Except that it makes this dreary bird with the worst song of any bird sound quite interesting. Real Fan-tailed Warblers live in the Americas and are smart birds.

Exactly. Do ours wander around cloisters mumbling to themselves as they make there way to begin their 15 hour shift of devotions and letter illuminations in thick old bibles? Of course they don't. They soar around in the sky appearing black while looking for dead stuff to eat. They may actually be more dark brown than they are black but they sure as hell look more like black than they look like monks.

[dantheman]

Why not Fan-tailed Cisticola then??!!!!! (or Fan tailed Cisticola. .)

Going on a short trip to Morocco at the end of this month, one species I'll definately NOT be looking for is Red-knobbed Coot. . . that's just wrong! Could lead to person's being arrested for incitement to causing indecency. 'Any Red-knobbed Coots about mate?' . . .
(Although apparently you would be well in order to ask that kind of question around hereabouts on Dartford Common. . .)

[Barred Wobbler]

Originally Posted by dantheman

Why not Fan-tailed Cisticola then??!!!!! (or Fan tailed Cisticola. .)

Going on a short trip to Morocco at the end of this month, one species I'll definately NOT be looking for is Red-knobbed Coot. . . that's just wrong! Could lead to person's being arrested for incitement to causing indecency. 'Any Red-knobbed Coots about mate?' . . .
(Although apparently you would be well in order to ask that kind of question around hereabouts on Dartford Common. . .)

This one was a crested coot when I saw it last Thursday.

[AlexC]

I don't see why you have a problem with Lapland Longspur - all other Calcarius are longspurs - of course, easy enough for me to say, living in the states...

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by Alan Seaton

This one was a crested coot when I saw it last Thursday.

Excellent! Don't see why we can't call that a crest.

On the other hand, as they (the knobs constituting the crest) apparently shrink and darken after breeding, Flat-backed Coot could be an alternative name, if necessary?? Ok, not, then. Or how about really pushing the boat out with Fulica cristatus??

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by overworkedirish

I don't see why you have a problem with Lapland Longspur - all other Calcarius are longspurs - of course, easy enough for me to say, living in the states...

Because in the Emberizidae (in this, the main part of the WP) we have lots of Emberiza, all called Buntings, a Plectrophenax (P. nivalis), which is also a bunting (Snow Bunting), then a single Calcarius, (C. lapponicus, Lapland Longspur??), and then lots more emberiza, Buntings again!!!

i.e. they are all Buntings save for one in the middle we now have to call a Longspur!!!

Just seems wrong! (Although of course I'll call them longspurs if I get to see them in North America ever!!)

[AlexC]

I don't know why people are getting bent outta shape - the birds are the birds - the names don't change that. None of us snicker at boobies or tits because they got stuck with suggestive names (well, okay, maybe some of us do... but it's all in good fun! Nobody holds it against the birds).

P.S. There've been updated studies on New World Vultures that link them away from Ciconiiformes... http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop241.html

For people who get so worked up about birds being called what they're not, you guys were pretty quick to call our Black Vulture a stork.

[AlexC]

Originally Posted by dantheman

Because in the Emberizidae (in this, the main part of the WP) we have lots of Emberiza, all called Buntings, a Plectrophenax (P. nivalis), which is also a bunting (Snow Bunting), then a single Calcarius, (C. lapponicus, Lapland Longspur??), and then lots more emberiza, Buntings again!!!

i.e. they are all Buntings save for one in the middle we now have to call a Longspur!!!

Just seems wrong! (Although of course I'll call them longspurs if I get to see them in North America ever!!)

Well yeah, there's only a single longspur for YOU, but there are 3 other Calcarius species in North America. You gotta think of the big picture. You don't hear us whining about calling Snow (and if you're in Alaska, McKay's) Buntings 'buntings.'

EDIT: I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread - I just don't see what the big deal is with names. 'long-spur', 'bun-ting' - 2 syllables each. 'black', 'monk' - 1 syllable each. Who cares?

[screaming piha]

Originally Posted by overworkedirish

For people who get so worked up about birds being called what they're not, you guys were pretty quick to call our Black Vulture a stork.

That would be me, then... Worked up? No. Enjoying a tease about the White-winged Pseudostork? Guilty. If your link's proposal is accepted widely a name change to White-winged Pseudoraptor is perfectly acceptable to me.

[dantheman]

Originally Posted by overworkedirish

EDIT: I probably shouldn't have gotten involved in this thread - I just don't see what the big deal is with names. 'long-spur', 'bun-ting' - 2 syllables each. 'black', 'monk' - 1 syllable each. Who cares?

Not worked up, just aggrieved, outraged and morbidly upset

And it isn't anything against the American names of birds, it's across the board. (Coots, Cisticolas, Northern or European everything. . .) When in Rome call a Diver a Loon, fine . . It's that we've been calling these birds a certain name since the year dot (give or take a little). I'm sure the same sentiments would occur if folks in the US were told they had to start calling the American Robin the American Thrush, for example, or your Goldfinches had to be found an alternative name, as 'goldfinches' is already in use elsewhere. The names that have been used are part of the heritage, literature even, and their individuality, quirkyness even should be allowable, as we have the linnean scientific wording to fall back upon if we want to be exact and scientific about things. ..

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by dantheman

Because in the Emberizidae (in this, the main part of the WP) we have lots of Emberiza, all called Buntings, a Plectrophenax (P. nivalis), which is also a bunting (Snow Bunting), then a single Calcarius, (C. lapponicus, Lapland Longspur??), and then lots more emberiza, Buntings again!!!

i.e. they are all Buntings save for one in the middle we now have to call a Longspur!!!

Just seems wrong! (Although of course I'll call them longspurs if I get to see them in North America ever!!)

...but the Longspurs, there are four species, are distinct from the other buntings and sparrows.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by overworkedirish

I don't know why people are getting bent outta shape - the birds are the birds - the names don't change that. None of us snicker at boobies or tits because they got stuck with suggestive names (well, okay, maybe some of us do... but it's all in good fun! Nobody holds it against the birds).

P.S. There've been updated studies on New World Vultures that link them away from Ciconiiformes... http://www.museum.lsu.edu/~Remsen/SACCprop241.html

For people who get so worked up about birds being called what they're not, you guys were pretty quick to call our Black Vulture a stork.

..and I prefer the name Oldsquaw over Long Tailed Duck, none the less that's the name the AUO has now adopted so it goes both ways too.

[Gentoo]

it's across the board. (Coots, Cisticolas, Northern or European everything.

A lot of people who may be just average birders, don't learn scientific names. By attaching a prefix type name, it indicates that there's more than one species with that English name. For example, Killdeer is simply Killdeer, there's only one. However Coot in a European Book and Coot in an American boook can be misleading. Remember most people aren't as detailed at learning the taxonomic relationship of birds. They just want to knw what the bird is called, therefore, adding identifyng words to the names in a way makes learning them easier.