[Michael W]

Does anyone have an opinion on the Canon 300D? What are the pros and cons?

Thanks!
Michael W

[roadrnr38]

Hi Michael. Saw one today for the first time in the store. Pro would be entry level to DSLR for canon, much lighter than the 10D, comes with one lens, many of the same functions as the 10D, can use any Canon lens with the body. It felt very good in the hand - also tried a couple of shots with the new ES lens you can get with it. Took a fairly decent shot - for being in store that it. Cons: Not sure I like that the flash pops up automatically for some settings, doesn't have all the functions of the 10D, the new ES lens doesn't fit any other Canon body. You can also get some good reviews from dpreview.com. They have a 300 forum that contains some pretty good stuff. Most of the reviews I've read from those who actually have one were positive. Hope this helps.

[Michael W]

Thank you roadrnr38! I'll give that site a shot!

Michael W

[bcurrie]

Hi Michael,

I do not have it, but in reading about it I would say the biggest con is the price of the lenses in order for you to have any decent reach. The one that comes with it will not cut it in the reach department. Also, I would want all the functions that the 10D has, well at least most of them.

Just one thing to think about, presuming you would be getting this for bird/nature photography, which means you will be getting into some seriously priced lenses. Does it really make sense to get the cheaper version of the 10D (not to discount that there have been some improvements) when you are going to be putting such expensive lenses on it? It is a good camera, don't get me wrong, but with the lenses priced the way they are currently (speaking of the 400IS and the 600IS specifically) why not pay for something that is built a little better? Just nothing but food for thought. If you get this camera, I am sure you will like it. If you were to get the 10D, just make sure it is not one of the few that have focusing problems.

[eric s]

I have the 10D, and I've answered this question several times now. There are several things which would stop me from getting the 300D.

1) It only has a 4-picture buffer. The 10D has a 9 pic buffer. I regularly take 4 pictures in a row. Raises the chance that one is sharp.

2) The interface isn't as good. I believe (please read the reviews to be sure) but the manual mode forces you to press a button and then use the wheel to alter either aperture or shutter speed (I don't remember which one.) With only one wheel (the 10D has
2) you have to toggle its mode. I would hate to do that while shooting a bird that will fly away at any time.

One thing to note, though. The 300D is smaller and lighter. That is a very nice thing.

I believe (but I don't know) that the 300D and 10D share the same imaging sensor, AF and metering (although the metering more limited.) If this were not the case, I would reject the camera outright. I consider the 10D AF only adequate. Please read this post I made on another forum. It isn't your fault, but I'm getting sick of this question.

http://www.stevesforums.com/phpBB2/v...ic.php?t=14223

Someone suggested dpreview.com. They do very good stuff there, I haven't read their review, but I'm sure it's well written and well done. I would also recommend reading both the 10D and 300D's review on steves-digicams.com.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/300d.html

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_reviews/10d.html

Read the reviews and compare them... even if you just compare the feature list. You'll learn a lot.

This is also a question about how knowledgeable you are about photography. If you use the camera more like a point-and-shoot, then both will do the job (except for the buffer depth thing, which will effect you all the time.) If you already have a digital camera and are looking to upgrade... then when you compare the reviews you'll already have some idea which camera would fit your needs more.

In the end, you’ll spend way more on lenses than on the camera body. So take that into account. Oh, and the lenses will outlast the body too.

Eric

[Michael W]

Thank you bcurrie and eric s!
This will be my first Camera and I'm wanting to get something that will not be too expensive but will provide good practice. I would upgrade to the good quality later. Does this sound like a good idea?

[bcurrie]

Michael,

Maybe others will disagree with me, but if this is your first camera I would definitely NOT purchase it. The reason why is that this is a more technical type of camera, not a good camera to practice on, IMHO. I would strongly suggest that you get a camera that is a "prosumer" camera, meaning not a DSLR, but not a consumer type camera. There are a number to choose from. The Minolta Z1 has a 10X zoom and 3MP, the Minolta A1 (yet to be shipped that I know of) has a 7X zoom (talking optical only on these zooms, don't pay attention to the digital zoom, it is basically worthless). The Canon Pro90IS, now out of production but still available, and I have heard you can get it on e-bay for less than $400, is the camera I have and I would consider it an excellent learner's camera, with some effort on your part. I just heard rumor that Panasonic is coming out with another 10X zoom at 4 MP, but that will be a little down the road. The Minolta Dimage 7 has also gotten favorable reviews amongst users I know.

Using a prosumer camera has "everything" built into it. However, if you go this route, make sure the camera has a larger lens so that you can put a teleconvertor, such as the Oly TCON-17 on it. Also meaning make sure it is a threaded lens.

Save the higher priced camera/lenses for when you become proficient at the prosumer camera. By then maybe the DSLR camera market might have matured a little bit and you can determine which camera direction you would like to go in. If you want to take bird photos, the DSLR will become VERY expensive with the lenses you will NEED.

BTW, adding on to Eric said, according to dpreview, the 300D images are sharper than the 10D. However, this is minute, at least to my eye (saw the test photos), but still worth noting.

[eric s]

Sorry for my annoyed attitude in the original post. I’ve hurt my knee and after 4 week son crutches and missing the fall migration… I’ve started to get a little testy.

bcurrie

Interesting. It is possible that they could be sharper (or more to the point, have less noise) but from what I understand the sensor is exactly the same. So they would have to improve it in other ways. Testing sharpness is very hard to do. The setup has to be right in every detail from proper tripod and subject target to not having a refrigerator running on the same floor of the house. I know something about this because I’m trying to learn how to do it. I’m unhappy with the sharpness of my 100-400L.

As to the “get a prosumer” answer…there is something to be said for that. I lean both ways. A prosumer camera is a much cheaper way to learn if you want to dive into photography. Some have decent lenses and if you can add a good quality TC, you can get some significant reach. Controlling depth of field will be difficult, but that is a more advanced thing to do any ways.

I’ve heard many good things about the Minolta Dimage 7 family of cameras. Some get expensive, though. Close to the price of the 300D, I bet.

The other part of me says that you can always use the camera in the more automatic modes and the 300D becomes a point and shoot with a good lens. That is appealing. And when you get better you grow into the camera.

Eric

[Michael W]

Thank you for the information. I'll have to look at those.
Bcurrie, what do you mean when you say that the 300D is too technical?

Thanks!
Michael

[bcurrie]

Eric, hey, no problem for me. I can appreciate missing the fall migration. We are a little further south than you, so still have a few coming through, and actually all the ducks have yet to fully arrive. Re: 300D, I just think it is an expensive camera (taking into account the lenses) for a point and shoot, and I hate to have anyone spend all that money for a point and shoot, when other good, more affordable options are out there. In case you haven't noticed, for a DSLR, I am an anti-automatic person (kind of sounds strange, but hopefully you understand). Know what you mean about testing sharpness, but on dpreview he seems to do a pretty good job. As I look at dpreview right now, my mistake. It is sharper than the Nikon D100. Here is the link to the sharpening of the 300D vs. the 10D. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/page18.asp Here is the pro and cons of just the 300D. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/page22.asp
I think dpreview and steves-digicams both do very good jobs of reviewing cameras.

Michael, that may have been a bit of an overstatement on my part. Anyone willing to learn can certainly learn it. I have just found that far too many people will get something like the 300D and use it as a point and shoot exclusively, when it is capable of so much more than that. I also think that the DSLR market is in its "toddlerhood", at best, and so many more changes are definitely coming that I do not think it is worth it right now. (Okay, consider me off of my soap box)

[eric s]

That the 300D is sharper than the D100 is not too surprising. I believe the same thing was said about the 10D. (I really wish Canon would come up with consistant naming systems!!!)

There are some good people over at dpreview (I read, but not post, over there as well. Learned a lot, actually.) I hadn't seen their review yet. That first link actually compares the 10D to the 300D. And in a few of those pictures it does look sharper. But not much, and not always. That could easily be accounted for my improved firmware, so that supports the claim that the sensor is the same between the cameras.

I would generally agree with their list of Cons (didn't read the pro, gotta get to work!) I'm surprised they didn't comment on some of the clunky interface changes they made. I'll have to look further to make sure the error isn't mine in reading the 300D manual.

I do agree that if all you want is a point and shoot, then the 300D (or any DSLR) is a true waste of money. But there are reasons to get it first (they don't sound like they apply to Michael W, though.) 1) Already have a film SLR (even if you don't use it often.) Once you are used to SLR lens controls and own even 2 lenses, a all-in-on is annoying and limiting. 2) If you know what you're doing. The basic lack of DOF, the noise at lower ISOs, the slower AF... that type of stuff will eventually really bother you.

DSLRs are certainly just learning to stumble. The second wave of new DLSRs is just coming out (I don't count the 300D, its mostly a cheaper designed 10D. A good idea, but not a new generation of camera.) The Nikon D2h is and the 1Ds is (if you ignore the price.) There are many more generations before things really settled down and we get near to where we are in film cameras.

But if you opt to go with an all-in-one, make sure you get a good long lens. Or make sure it can take a TC (quality will suffer, but you need reach if you are shooting birds.)

It should be noted that what you will shoot was not listed. Without that info, all are statements are pure speculation as to what migh fit you. Pick a camera based on what you will use it for, not its newness and cool features/price.

Eric

[Michael W]

Thank you very much!

Michael

[robroy]

I've had my 300D for about two weeks now (900 or so frames shot). I love it.

I'm using it with a cheap(ish) Sigma 400mm 5.6 fixed-length lens (APO, but the old non-macro version- cost me A$380 on eBay).

I also tossed up saving longer for the 10D, but felt I could shoot quite a few thousand images and teach myself some bird photography in the time it would take me to save another A$1,500. And then there was the wife to consider

I'm sure I'll miss the mirror lockup and the extra buffer frames sooner rather than later, but a bird in the viewfinder is worth ...
well a lot. It has basically the same sensor and processor.

To see some (early) shots see my profile or www.roblog.com

If you're really interested I can email you some larger (full-size) images.

[Paul Rule]

I have an EOS 10, that I have owned for many years, and am considering the 300D, as I would love to link up my existing lenses (24-300mm) to a digital camera. All I would then need is a big tele for the birdies (pity I dont have a buget for that).

Like the 300 the 10 has a plastic body construction but its well built and has never let me down.

Andy Rouse has done a 1st impressions review of this camera which you may find interesting. It can find on the Warehouse Express web site.

http://www.warehouseexpress.co.uk

Paul

[Charlie M]

Hi All,
I bought the 300D a couple of weeks ago and use it with an EOS 100-400 IS. I've always taken video before, but I love this camera: I'm getting some great (IMHO) images, often using mostly Auto functions. I've just come back from a day in Chicago (at theMagic Hedge) and found walking around with it all day with the 100-400 attached no problem. As for "too technical" just use it and learn - as there's no film you can make as many mistakes as you want, delete as often as you want, and keep the good ones. Yeah, it's not cheap, but the technology is incredible for under a thousand pounds. Some user-forums I've looked at seem to want to pick holes in everything - but as a keen amateur who loves to learn I'd recommend it for sure. Great fun, and great images.

[Michael W]

Thank you for the coments. I have decided to buy it but things have been very busy lately. I will use it with the Vivitar 100-400mm lens for Canon EOS. I know that it is not great quality, but hey, it will give me good practice for future good-quality (expensive) lenses.

Thanks,
Michael

[Geoff Brown]

I've read everything and been to a few forums and eventually decided to go for the Canon EOS10D. More money I know but youv'e only got one life to live. I already have a 50mm 1.8 EOS lens, a 75-300mm Canon zoom, and also a 28-135mm IS Canon zoom lens, plus a Canon dedicated flash unit which have been gradually acquired over many years. To cover all eventualities earlier this year I bought a digital Nikon 4500 coolpix and the Nikon adaptors to connect it to my Nikon RAIIA spotterscope. It was the Nikon that convinced me to go digital and give up film as any mistakes can be deleted and you start all over again. Printing out the Nikon pictures were (to me) indistinguishable from waiting two or three days for them to come back from the professional processors. The fact that digital is instantaneous and can be corrected immediately clinched the decision to changeover lock stock and barrel as it were. it will now be interesting to see how long I have to wait before the 10D arrives by the courier.

[Widowmaker]

I also have the 300D and I have no complaints. Eric pointed out the one wheel issue as opposed to the 2 wheels. Im guessing one wheel for each setting. I have not found that to be an issue. In manual mode you do have to press a button to toggle to aperture but the button is conviently located next to your thumbs resting location, as are other ajdustment buttons.

I am in the process of getting a lens, actually I will probably get two. One will be the Sigma 600mm mirror lens. The results I have found on the web show that this lens yields excellent results and for $300 that is some good magnification. My other lens will be the Sigma 50-500mm. Reviews and samples I have seen also show that this is a very high quality lens although a little over twice as expensive as the mirror.

[robroy]

Widowmaker,

A word of warning that you may already be aware of. I haven't used a mirror lens, but every serious discussion I've seen says the bokeh (out-of-focus) has strange and distracting donut shapes rather than a smooth "painted" finish.

It may be worth doing some more homework.

Rob

[Widowmaker]

Originally posted by robroy
Widowmaker,

A word of warning that you may already be aware of. I haven't used a mirror lens, but every serious discussion I've seen says the bokeh (out-of-focus) has strange and distracting donut shapes rather than a smooth "painted" finish.

It may be worth doing some more homework.

Rob

Thanks for the heads up. I started off using a Meade ETX-90 telescope coupled to a Coolpix 4500. The ETX-90 is essentially a big mirror lens. Out of all the images I took, I only saw what I believe you are referring to one time (see attached image). I think it happens mostly when their are bright objects far off in the background from what you are focused on, as it was in the image I attached. As you can see the dark areas are not affected. I never even noticed this in my image until I read about the effect. Somthing I could easily edit out if it became to much of a distraction.

[eric s]

The effect in this picture is very mild (I have trouble finding it, in fact.) I have seen other pictures where you might think you're having a flashback from too much drug use. It is very distracting.

You might be right, though. It could have to do with the lighting and distance. I know someone who has a mirror lens, so I'll ask. Maybe he has picked up on the trend.

Eric

[Widowmaker]

Originally posted by eric s
The effect in this picture is very mild (I have trouble finding it, in fact.) I have seen other pictures where you might think you're having a flashback from too much drug use. It is very distracting.

You might be right, though. It could have to do with the lighting and distance. I know someone who has a mirror lens, so I'll ask. Maybe he has picked up on the trend.

Eric

Thanks eric. If possilbe could you see if he has some sample images, preferrably of birds or something similar to the image I posted? I have found some samples but none that are similar to what I will be using the lens for.

[eric s]

I did a little poking around dpreview for some example pictures. I came up with this description of the effect:

The bokeh, or out of focus areas, may be donut shaped in certain circumstances, due to the shadow of the secondary mirror right in the center of the field.

And this comment:

Yes, out of focus areas, particularly pin-point highlights, will appear donut-shaped. This is a tell-tale sign of a mirror lens, but it can actually produce some interesting effects, particularly with specular highlights such as the sun on waves.

And this interesting comment:

but you just can't get away from those out-of-focus donuts (or double lines on straight edges).

But I didn't find any example pictures there (I have in the past, I'm sure.) My friend is out sick, I'll have to ask him tomorrow.

Eric

[jvhigbee]

For what it's worth, the settings for sharpness are set to neutral on 10D default. on the 300D they are set at +1 I believe. As someone suggested the review on dpreview is worth reading.

[Geoff Brown]

See my post above. Jessops phoned tonight and at last my 10D has been despatched. Can't wait!!