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Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 07:53

Hi,
White Wagtails winter in the Kolkata (Calcutta) city area and the 1st lot is already in. I have noticed that a lot of them land together and then disperse over a few days.

This morning saw a large batch at my local golf club and interestingly there seemed to be 3 sub-species in attendance.
While dukhunensis is the regular visitor, leucopsis can also be seen. What puzzled me was the wagtail in the middle (attached image) with a thin but clearly visible eye-stripe. Is this "ocularis" or a juv./moulting dukhunensis?
Cheers!
Sumit

Charles Harper · Monday 29th September 2003, 09:06

Sumit, in my expensive new 'Pipits and Wagtails' (Alstrom and Mild), there is

(1) no subspecies named dukhunensis;
(2) no subspecies illustrated without dark on chest, at least a dark crescent; and
(3) no juvenile of any subspecies illustrated with a black crown/nape.

Therefore, I can only say that the center bird looks like the adult summer ocularis we occasionally see here, except for the unmarked breast.

And now I shall tear this book into very small pieces and bury them in the back garden for mulch...

Michael Frankis · Monday 29th September 2003, 10:13

Hi Sumit,

I'm only guessing here as I don't have any experience of any of the Asian White Wagtail races, but I think the yellow tint on the middle bird's face means it is probably a juvenile.

Michael

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 10:23

Thanks Charles!
1)I don't have the book but ssp. dukhunensis is what both Grimmett, Inskipp, Inskipp and Kazmierczak have for one of the Grey-backed species (other one is baicalensis). Maybe they have been merged since.
2)Often the image lies a little. Most birds have a small spot at least, though I have seen a few without.
3) Juveniles often show black crown/nape, I have a few images.
Cheers!
Sumit

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 11:04

Got this from the web:
Taxonomic changes 1998:
"There is no evidence that populations in western Asia ('dukhunensis') are diagnosably distinct from alba. Therefore, 'dukhunensis' is included in alba. "
Cheers!
Sumit

Michael Frankis · Monday 29th September 2003, 11:14

Hi Sumit,

Well I for one find that taxonomic judgement absurd!

European alba does not have pure white greater coverts, as your birds show. On the evidence of your photos, either dukhunensis should be recognised, or else yours are some other race

Here's a pic of alba from the gallery by Gaukur for comparison:
http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...hp?photo=10505
Note the greater coverts black, with white tips only.

Michael

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 11:19

Hi Michael,
On the basis of that evidence I would have to agree with you , even though I am a mere photographer. The quote came from the Dutch birding site and the only choice left is baicalensis which is not supposed to occur in our area.
Cheers!
Sumit

Michael Frankis · Monday 29th September 2003, 11:32

Hi Sumit,

Checked in Svensson, Identification guide to European Passerines; he accepts dukhunensis (and as he is probably Europe's top birder, he is normally listened to!), and states as follows:

Quote:

ssp. dukhunensis (S E Russia, W & C Siberia, Transcaucasia, N Iran) is perhaps a potential vagrant to Europe; slightly paler above, and whitish tips to GC and MC wider on average. Often wide white outer edges to all but innermost GC, and some males have such extensive white tips and edges to most wing-C that a large unbroken white wing patch is formed. Hardly distinguishable without comparison with museum material, except for males with extensive white in wing.

Michael

Charlie M · Monday 29th September 2003, 13:20

Hi,
I must admit that I haven't seen Ocularis for a year now, but I don't remember ever seeing one without an extensive bib. Baicalensis does show a dark crown rather than a grey one, but also has an extensive bib. Alba races hybridise pretty extensively, and some sort of broken or indistinct eye-stripe is a common result. If I were forced to ID this one, I think I'd be reaching for the "hybrid" tag!

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 13:36

Thanks Michael and Charlie,
I had some feedback from another forum, which I quote:
"As this eye-stripe is typical for ocularis in all plumages, I think this is indeed an example of ocularis.
Paul Van Gasse"
I expect some more feedback and will update.
Cheers!
sumit

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 15:25

Hi Folks!
Here is an update:
"I'm afraid I can't completely agree with Paul Van Gasse on this one. It doesn't look quite right for ocularis to me. I have been intimately involved in the identification issues regarding M. a. ocularis vs. M. (a.) lugens and have examined hundreds of photos and specimens as well as studied these birds in life.

All ocularis show the dark eyeline extending all the way back and
connecting to the nape as well as forward to the bill. Your bird has an unusually thin line which does not connect to the nape, nor does it seem to completely connect to the eye from the bill. Furthermore, your bird has a peculiar dark mark on the face under the eye which does not normally occur on ocularis, at least not on adults. I think your bird is an adult, showing adult wing coverts.

Your bird also seems to show a much reduced black bib, although this may be partly illusion.

Incidentally M. a. dukhunensis is generally now regarded as a synonym of M. a. alba.

Unfortunately I cannot confidently place your bird to subspecies, although I suspect it may be an intergrade alba x ocularis or ocularis x baicalensis. It is certainly a very interesting bird.

Very detailed accounts of these subspecies, with excellent plates are found in the new "Pipits and Wagtails" by Alström & Mild.

--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan@ccsf.org

Sumit · Monday 29th September 2003, 15:36

Just one additional point. White Wagtails show very thin or non-existent dark bibs when they arrive for wintering. I shot 6 birds today of three different ssp. and all show near white breasts.
Regards,
Sumit

Charlie M · Monday 29th September 2003, 18:14

Hi,
I would agree with Joseph about the eye-line - which was why I mentioned "broken or indistinct eye-stripe". It doesn't look long or solid enough to me. I would still go with a hybrid of some sort. Incidentally, we have hybrid "lugensxleucopsis" images on our site which show a similar feature - not really relevant to this bird, but perhaps worth a look
http://www.wbkenglish.com/lugens.asp

Sumit · Thursday 2nd October 2003, 06:24

Here is what Per Alsthom has to say:
"Dear Sumit,
I do believe that both the first photo and the one labelled dukhunensis are first-winter leucopsis, although I would have liked to see the breast + side of neck patterns to be sure.
..........................................
All the best

Per"

Michael Frankis · Thursday 2nd October 2003, 12:42

Hi Sumit,

Good to get them sorted!

I don't know leucopsis (not in my books) - what's its breeding & winter ranges?

Michael

Charles Harper · Thursday 2nd October 2003, 12:59

Leucopsis breeds somewhere in China, and winters irregularly to the southern parts of Japan. That's all I know, Michael. Haven't seen one myself here. Ours are mostly lugens ('Black-backed').

logos · Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:08

Hi Sumit et al,

Kim Hyun-tae has just added a fine series of images of Korean 'White' Wagtails to his site:

http://home.megapass.co.kr/~skua/

For those who do not know this site it has a vast collection of first class images of a wide range of East Asian species. It is not always easy to navigate around the site I find, and some of the pages are large and may take a while to download if you don't have a broadband connection, but the wait is normally well worth it.

Kim would be the first to admit that his English is not great but I think it would be nice if anyone making good use of his site would occasionally drop him a quick line in thanks or offer brief informed comment on some of the queries he has.

Spud

Sumit · Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:22

Hi Spud,
Thanks! I am a great fan of Kim's, an outstanding photographer whose work I regularly get to see in another forum. I will check Kim's pages. As far as this wagtail is concerned, I am waiting for it to stop raining to get back and have another look. I am not convinced that we have reached the end of the road on this ID.
Cheers!
Sumit

logos · Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:37

I must admit that I never even left the house on this one Sumit!

Spud

Sumit · Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:53

I'll send a Merc (not that I will ever have one) if that helps!
Sumit

Sumit · Tuesday 7th October 2003, 20:08

I did check Kim's fab images and must admit that all the ID books I have are wrong as Kim's ocularis does not resemble ( to the layman) any illustration of that species. Seems like the eye-stripe was the deciding factor in the identification.
Sumit

Monday 29th September 2003, 07:53	#1
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	White Wagtails and ID check Hi, White Wagtails winter in the Kolkata (Calcutta) city area and the 1st lot is already in. I have noticed that a lot of them land together and then disperse over a few days. This morning saw a large batch at my local golf club and interestingly there seemed to be 3 sub-species in attendance. While dukhunensis is the regular visitor, leucopsis can also be seen. What puzzled me was the wagtail in the middle (attached image) with a thin but clearly visible eye-stripe. Is this "ocularis" or a juv./moulting dukhunensis? Cheers! Sumit Attached Thumbnails

Monday 29th September 2003, 09:06	#2
Charles Harper Régisseur Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 2,313	Sumit, in my expensive new 'Pipits and Wagtails' (Alstrom and Mild), there is (1) no subspecies named dukhunensis; (2) no subspecies illustrated without dark on chest, at least a dark crescent; and (3) no juvenile of any subspecies illustrated with a black crown/nape. Therefore, I can only say that the center bird looks like the adult summer ocularis we occasionally see here, except for the unmarked breast. And now I shall tear this book into very small pieces and bury them in the back garden for mulch... __________________ ... al with-oute, the mewe is peynted grene, In which were peynted alle thise false foules, As beth thise tidifs, tercelets, and oules,... and pyes.... Kantorilode: Birds of Japan .
	Click here to Support BirdForum

Monday 29th September 2003, 10:13	#3
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Hi Sumit, I'm only guessing here as I don't have any experience of any of the Asian White Wagtail races, but I think the yellow tint on the middle bird's face means it is probably a juvenile. Michael __________________ My signature

Monday 29th September 2003, 10:23	#4
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Thanks Charles! 1)I don't have the book but ssp. dukhunensis is what both Grimmett, Inskipp, Inskipp and Kazmierczak have for one of the Grey-backed species (other one is baicalensis). Maybe they have been merged since. 2)Often the image lies a little. Most birds have a small spot at least, though I have seen a few without. 3) Juveniles often show black crown/nape, I have a few images. Cheers! Sumit Attached Thumbnails

Monday 29th September 2003, 11:14	#6
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Hi Sumit, Well I for one find that taxonomic judgement absurd! European alba does not have pure white greater coverts, as your birds show. On the evidence of your photos, either dukhunensis should be recognised, or else yours are some other race Here's a pic of alba from the gallery by Gaukur for comparison: http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/...hp?photo=10505 Note the greater coverts black, with white tips only. Michael __________________ My signature

Monday 29th September 2003, 11:04	#5
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Got this from the web: Taxonomic changes 1998: "There is no evidence that populations in western Asia ('dukhunensis') are diagnosably distinct from alba. Therefore, 'dukhunensis' is included in alba. " Cheers! Sumit

Monday 29th September 2003, 11:19	#7
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Hi Michael, On the basis of that evidence I would have to agree with you , even though I am a mere photographer. The quote came from the Dutch birding site and the only choice left is baicalensis which is not supposed to occur in our area. Cheers! Sumit

Monday 29th September 2003, 13:20	#9
Charlie M Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Wilts, UK Posts: 296	Hi, I must admit that I haven't seen Ocularis for a year now, but I don't remember ever seeing one without an extensive bib. Baicalensis does show a dark crown rather than a grey one, but also has an extensive bib. Alba races hybridise pretty extensively, and some sort of broken or indistinct eye-stripe is a common result. If I were forced to ID this one, I think I'd be reaching for the "hybrid" tag! __________________ Charlie Moores http://www.talking-naturally.co.uk

Monday 29th September 2003, 13:36	#10
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Thanks Michael and Charlie, I had some feedback from another forum, which I quote: "As this eye-stripe is typical for ocularis in all plumages, I think this is indeed an example of ocularis. Paul Van Gasse" I expect some more feedback and will update. Cheers! sumit

Monday 29th September 2003, 15:25	#11
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Hi Folks! Here is an update: "I'm afraid I can't completely agree with Paul Van Gasse on this one. It doesn't look quite right for ocularis to me. I have been intimately involved in the identification issues regarding M. a. ocularis vs. M. (a.) lugens and have examined hundreds of photos and specimens as well as studied these birds in life. All ocularis show the dark eyeline extending all the way back and connecting to the nape as well as forward to the bill. Your bird has an unusually thin line which does not connect to the nape, nor does it seem to completely connect to the eye from the bill. Furthermore, your bird has a peculiar dark mark on the face under the eye which does not normally occur on ocularis, at least not on adults. I think your bird is an adult, showing adult wing coverts. Your bird also seems to show a much reduced black bib, although this may be partly illusion. Incidentally M. a. dukhunensis is generally now regarded as a synonym of M. a. alba. Unfortunately I cannot confidently place your bird to subspecies, although I suspect it may be an intergrade alba x ocularis or ocularis x baicalensis. It is certainly a very interesting bird. Very detailed accounts of these subspecies, with excellent plates are found in the new "Pipits and Wagtails" by Alström & Mild. -- Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA 94044 jmorlan@ccsf.org

Monday 29th September 2003, 15:36	#12
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Just one additional point. White Wagtails show very thin or non-existent dark bibs when they arrive for wintering. I shot 6 birds today of three different ssp. and all show near white breasts. Regards, Sumit

Monday 29th September 2003, 18:14	#13
Charlie M Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Wilts, UK Posts: 296	Hi, I would agree with Joseph about the eye-line - which was why I mentioned "broken or indistinct eye-stripe". It doesn't look long or solid enough to me. I would still go with a hybrid of some sort. Incidentally, we have hybrid "lugensxleucopsis" images on our site which show a similar feature - not really relevant to this bird, but perhaps worth a look http://www.wbkenglish.com/lugens.asp __________________ Charlie Moores http://www.talking-naturally.co.uk

Thursday 2nd October 2003, 06:24	#14
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Here is what Per Alsthom has to say: "Dear Sumit, I do believe that both the first photo and the one labelled dukhunensis are first-winter leucopsis, although I would have liked to see the breast + side of neck patterns to be sure. .......................................... All the best Per"

Thursday 2nd October 2003, 12:42	#15
Michael Frankis conehead Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: . Posts: 6,794	Hi Sumit, Good to get them sorted! I don't know leucopsis (not in my books) - what's its breeding & winter ranges? Michael __________________ My signature

Thursday 2nd October 2003, 12:59	#16
Charles Harper Régisseur Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 2,313	Leucopsis breeds somewhere in China, and winters irregularly to the southern parts of Japan. That's all I know, Michael. Haven't seen one myself here. Ours are mostly lugens ('Black-backed'). __________________ ... al with-oute, the mewe is peynted grene, In which were peynted alle thise false foules, As beth thise tidifs, tercelets, and oules,... and pyes.... Kantorilode: Birds of Japan .
	Click here to Support BirdForum

Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:08	#17
logos Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: uk Posts: 562	Hi Sumit et al, Kim Hyun-tae has just added a fine series of images of Korean 'White' Wagtails to his site: http://home.megapass.co.kr/~skua/ For those who do not know this site it has a vast collection of first class images of a wide range of East Asian species. It is not always easy to navigate around the site I find, and some of the pages are large and may take a while to download if you don't have a broadband connection, but the wait is normally well worth it. Kim would be the first to admit that his English is not great but I think it would be nice if anyone making good use of his site would occasionally drop him a quick line in thanks or offer brief informed comment on some of the queries he has. Spud Last edited by logos : Tuesday 7th October 2003 at 19:14.

Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:22	#18
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	Hi Spud, Thanks! I am a great fan of Kim's, an outstanding photographer whose work I regularly get to see in another forum. I will check Kim's pages. As far as this wagtail is concerned, I am waiting for it to stop raining to get back and have another look. I am not convinced that we have reached the end of the road on this ID. Cheers! Sumit

Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:37	#19
logos Registered User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: uk Posts: 562	I must admit that I never even left the house on this one Sumit! Spud

Tuesday 7th October 2003, 19:53	#20
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	I'll send a Merc (not that I will ever have one) if that helps! Sumit

Tuesday 7th October 2003, 20:08	#21
Sumit Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kolkata, India Posts: 775 My location	I did check Kim's fab images and must admit that all the ID books I have are wrong as Kim's ocularis does not resemble ( to the layman) any illustration of that species. Seems like the eye-stripe was the deciding factor in the identification. Sumit

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