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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:36   #1
JimMorris
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ID NEEDED, BIRD of PREY, DONANA, SPAIN.

I've just found this photo taken in May 2005 at the Donana Natonal Park, Spain. I have no idea what bird of prey it is but I'm sure that someone out there wil be able to ID it. I have lightened it up a bit. Thanks.

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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:47   #2
timwootton
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Kite, perhaps. Possibly red, looking at markings, although I would have liked to have seen a bit more fork to the tail (but this foreshortened angle and the bird's nature of shape-shifting could account).
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:50   #3
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It's a Kite - not sure could be red but leaning towards Black - shows 6 prims, unforked shortish tail, (sub.a?)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...s_2005-new.jpg

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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:50   #4
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I too thought Kite, but black, not red.
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:51   #5
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i think i can see 6 primaries which would make it a black kite as well as the underwing white patch not being very distinct.
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 09:56   #6
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Kite for sure, Red possibly because of the widely spread tail, but does the dark eye surround not suggest juvenile Black Kite?
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:09   #7
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Isnt a juvenile in may unlikely?
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:26   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by On-Firecrest View Post
i think i can see 6 primaries which would make it a black kite as well as the underwing white patch not being very distinct.
Actually, it was the very contrasty underwing pattern that led me to think it was RED - although as my first post says - POSSIBLY red - and I'm happy with black (assuming it isn;t a booted eagle . . . )

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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:40   #9
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I'd agree with Black Kite too. The fork in the tail is fairly shallow, and it shows 6 prims as mentioned.

D
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:47   #10
dantheman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by On-Firecrest View Post
Isnt a juvenile in may unlikely?
mmmm, yes, pesky shadows then . . .
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:48   #11
Dave Hall
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Hi I think its a Black Kite reasons already given by Dan
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:49   #12
J Moss
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Another vote for Black Kite (horray, came to the right decision for a change!)

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Hi I think its a Black Kite reasons already given by Dan
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Old Saturday 14th July 2007, 10:55   #13
deborah4
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Quote:
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Hi I think its a Black Kite reasons already given by Dan
and me I believe in post 3

very possibly sub adult as also mentioned. Further indication, pale tale (more rufous/red, in Red k. and longer than Black.)
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Old Sunday 15th July 2007, 07:37   #14
MKinHK
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There's always one . . .

Please note this view is based on seeing many thousands of Black Kite and just a handful of views of Red Kite.

I think its a Red Kite - principally beacuse the wings (especially the hand) looks too long and narrow for Black Kite (which is usually rather more compact in its wing-shape).

According to "Flight Identification of European Raptors" both species have six primaries, so unless I'm hopelessly out of date (which I accept as a very real possibility) then this is not a diagnostic feature.

I also think that the tail is spread pretty wide in the act of turning, when the tail-fork can disappear, and that the vent looks to have too rufous a tone for Black Kite.

I also think that the had of this bird is plaer than I would expect fo most (but not all) Black Kites

Also perhaps a minor point, but based on seeing thousands of Black Kites in Hong Kong I often see the tail twisted out of alignment with the wings, but almost never the head.

Cheers

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Old Sunday 15th July 2007, 08:44   #15
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Thank you all for your comments and opinions. It seems that the majority go for a Black Kite so I'll go along with that but won't add it to my life list as it's not certain, which is a shame. Never mind I'll try again as I'm thinking of spending the winter in the wilds of Extremadura and Anderlucia, Spain. Thanks once more and happy birding.
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Old Sunday 15th July 2007, 09:40   #16
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Mike - I don't think that its safe to call this as a Black kite on that one picture either. I've seen Eastern Black Kites look that contrasty underneath, but not Spanish ones. I think its the contrast between the secondaries and underwing coverts that is bothering me.

Here is a Red Kite showing 6 pps

The server isn't having any of it - I'll try again later if I remember
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Old Sunday 15th July 2007, 09:45   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKinHK View Post
There's always one . . .

Please note this view is based on seeing many thousands of Black Kite and just a handful of views of Red Kite.

I think its a Red Kite - principally beacuse the wings (especially the hand) looks too long and narrow for Black Kite (which is usually rather more compact in its wing-shape).

According to "Flight Identification of European Raptors" both species have six primaries, so unless I'm hopelessly out of date (which I accept as a very real possibility) then this is not a diagnostic feature.

I also think that the tail is spread pretty wide in the act of turning, when the tail-fork can disappear, and that the vent looks to have too rufous a tone for Black Kite.

I also think that the had of this bird is plaer than I would expect fo most (but not all) Black Kites

Also perhaps a minor point, but based on seeing thousands of Black Kites in Hong Kong I often see the tail twisted out of alignment with the wings, but almost never the head.

Cheers

Mike
Or two....

Single shot, tricky, but I'd agree with Mike.

Except for the last point. Not visited HK...

James
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Old Sunday 15th July 2007, 11:12   #18
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I see in Janes linked birds a Black Kite with 6 visible primaries and a Red Kite (moulting) with 5 visible primaries. The subject bird doe´s have 6 visible primaries , which means - that the innermost primarie we are talking about is longer in Black - if we are talking Black or Red - Black Kite! The angle of the bird may alter the different impression you might get for this to be a Black Kite and as Jane mentioned the underwing looks strange for Black. I even had it down as a younger Bonelli´s Eagle for a moment there.

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Old Monday 16th July 2007, 00:19   #19
dantheman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimMorris View Post
I've just found this photo taken in May 2005 at the Donana Natonal Park, Spain. . . . I have lightened it up a bit.
Possible silly question- Since the pic has been lightened up could this make it more misleading than it really is? Is it worth a look at the original? (ok - which'll probably either be a silhouette or 'look' like it is Black Kite) Just a thought out of interest . . . . !!
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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 08:04   #20
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Hi there

Have to agree with Mike and Jane - Red Kite. Jizz, dimensions, tail (at that angle you are unlikely to see any fork, but the outer tail feathers look "sharp tipped"). i think the 5 or 6 primary debate is also fairly irrelevant at such an angle as you can see all the outer primaries are well separated, which in itself would make the "6th" primary look like another "separated" primary (if you get my drift). Although the photo is quite sunwashed the general contrast in plumage tones (more obvious on Red Kite) would also suggest the species.
But that's just an opinion - nobody's paying me to get it right!

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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 10:46   #21
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In my books this a Black, possibly a young bird. Wings aren't long enough (they do appeared stretched to the limits) and have a diffuse window (ok maybe it's just the light...) and most important of all the tail: In Red it would show a fork regrdless of the hspe it is held in.

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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 13:39   #22
bitterntwisted
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Quote:
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In Red it would show a fork regrdless of the hspe it is held in.
Not always, Dimitris.
http://www.charliesbirdblog.com/~cha...n05/kite02.jpg
http://www.whiteplanes.com/images/sh...iliabirds2.jpg

I'm not going to pronounce on the subject bird, though.

Graham

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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 13:48   #23
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I would go for Red Kite (not 100% sure though).

I've only seen a few red kites but I've seen hundreds of Black Kites and I've never seen one with a tail like that.

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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 14:24   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKinHK View Post
There's always one . . .

Please note this view is based on seeing many thousands of Black Kite and just a handful of views of Red Kite.

I think its a Red Kite - principally beacuse the wings (especially the hand) looks too long and narrow for Black Kite (which is usually rather more compact in its wing-shape).

According to "Flight Identification of European Raptors" both species have six primaries, so unless I'm hopelessly out of date (which I accept as a very real possibility) then this is not a diagnostic feature.

I also think that the tail is spread pretty wide in the act of turning, when the tail-fork can disappear, and that the vent looks to have too rufous a tone for Black Kite.

I also think that the had of this bird is plaer than I would expect fo most (but not all) Black Kites

Also perhaps a minor point, but based on seeing thousands of Black Kites in Hong Kong I often see the tail twisted out of alignment with the wings, but almost never the head.

Cheers

Mike
I'm happy to agree 100% with Mike on this one. I too have seen thousands of Black Kite - only in Spain - and also many Red Kites there & in the UK. Although the angle is a bit tricky, to me this is certainly a Red, not Black, Kite. Like Mike, neither do I go with the simplistic 6 primaries = Black, 5 primaries = Red equation - particularly at an angle like this. No, this is a Red Kite,

John
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Old Wednesday 18th July 2007, 14:44   #25
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Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cantelo View Post
I'm happy to agree 100% with Mike on this one. I too have seen thousands of Black Kite - only in Spain - and also many Red Kites there & in the UK. Although the angle is a bit tricky, to me this is certainly a Red, not Black, Kite. Like Mike, neither do I go with the simplistic 6 primaries = Black, 5 primaries = Red equation - particularly at an angle like this. No, this is a Red Kite,

John
hi john
im afraid i have to disagree with you and go with black kite because i can
see no hint of a fork tail which are noticable with reds in flight also
there is no white on the primeries.
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