[dombates]

Hi,

This has been bugging me for a few months now so any insights would be welcome...

I've read in field guides and on the 'net that hen harriers on the continent breed in habitats other than moorland. For example, in France and Holland they breed in a number of heathland, reedbed and salt marsh locations. Given hen harriers winter in such habitats in the UK, is there a particular reason why they choose not to breed there?
It's seems especially odd as they are less likely to face persecution in these habitats. Are British harriers fussier about their food or something?

On a similar tip, is there a reason why Lanners don't occur in Spain? There would appear to be large amounts of ideal habitat - would the abundance of other raptors in Spain present too much competition for Lanners to expand their range?

Cheers for any replies,

Dom

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Dom,

Welcome to BirdForum!

The reason is that heather moorland is the optimum habitat for Hen Harriers in terms of habitat quality. So they are all attracted to breed there.

Then they all get shot by gamekeepers.

So they never manage to increase their population to the extent that they could 'spill over' into other habitats.

Very sad, I am sorry to say.

Michael

[Colin]

Dom,
On behalf of all of the Moderators and Admin, welcome to BirdForum. You will find lots of members with a vast range of knowledge of all subjects of the natural world. I hope you will enjoy your stay here. I look forward to more of your posts.

As far as Hen Harriers are concerned, I am not an expert but along with Michael there are many raptorphiles here who will give you an answer.

[nirofo]

Hi Dom

Hen Harriers also nest in upland/rough grazing where the soft rush is fairly dense, I've seen several nests built on a platform of dry rush in these areas. Young conifer plantations are also a good nesting site for Harriers, in the late seventies and early eighties these were the preffered sites in northern Scotland.

[scampo]

Originally posted by nirofo
Hi Dom

Hen Harriers also nest in upland/rough grazing where the soft rush is fairly dense, I've seen several nests built on a platform of dry rush in these areas. Young conifer plantations are also a good nesting site for Harriers, in the late seventies and early eighties these were the preffered sites in northern Scotland.

Haven't they nested before now in Norfolk, Suffolk and Lincs? I imagine they wouldn't bother nesting in the moorland if it wasn't for the grouse - that's a sad fact.

[nirofo]

Hi Spar

While I agree that Grouse are taken as prey where they are plentiful, in areas where the Grouse are sparse small species like Meadow Pipits etc are usually taken. In the far north of Scotland the Grouse are very thin on the ground (although the keepers would like us to believe otherwise), invarioubly the predominant prey species is Meadow Pipits and other small birds. Even though the Harriers pose no threat to the keepers in these areas, they are still persecuted almost to extinction. Add to this the annual threat of habitat destruction due to heather burning and it becomes obvious that these birds are on a hiding to nothing !!!

nirofo.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Spar,

It is nice to hear there is one grouse moor in the country where Hen Harriers are not shot (or killed by other means)!

Presumably this is one of the 10% of grouse moors where raptors are not persecuted illegally. Unfortunately, while this does help, it isn't going to do a huge amount for the English Hen Harrier population.

Michael

[nirofo]

Hi Spar

I wonder if the Hen Harriers are doing well in the Trough of Bowland because the area has received so much adverse (for the keepers and landowner) publicity in recent years, I also wonder if the public right to roam freedom will keep the keepers on their toes so to speak.

nirofo.

[Michael Frankis]

Hi Nirofo,

The Trough of Bowland is owned by Northwest Water, who, as a corporation with a high public profile, are determined to obey the law very, very carefully.

The adjoining estate owned by someone else is a very different matter. Plenty of published evidence of raptor persecution there. The Right to Roam legislation might help, but I doubt it - there won't be many folk watching what goes on at 3am on a late May morning, and estate owners have also managed to get a clause included in the law allowing them to close the land for a few days each year for 'estate management' (i.e., raptor killing).

Michael

[nirofo]

Hi Michael

I assume the adjoining estate belongs to the same Duke of Wotsit that owns the biggest part of north west Scotland and other places!! I take your point about 3 am in the morning, the same thing applies here, if a nest is going to be robbed or the birds shot or got rid of by some other means then it always seems to happen around this time.

nirofo.

[Chris Monk]

EN/03/37 29 September 2003
Hen harriers still holding on - 2003 breeding season figures published

English Nature published the 2003 breeding figures for the endangered hen harrier today. The facts show that this rare bird of prey is still holding on in its traditional English strongholds despite a number of setbacks earlier in the spring.

There were 22 nesting attempts in England this year involving at least 18 territorial females. From these attempts, there were eight successful nests which resulted in 26 fledged young.

There were 14 failed breeding attempts:



Natural factors, such as poor weather or predation appeared to account for the loss of five nests;

Three nests were burnt out as the result of moorland fires in April;

Six nests were lost under circumstances suggesting illegal persecution,


In 2002, there were seven successful nests that fledged 22 young.

These breeding data were gathered by field staff as part of English Nature’s Hen Harrier Recovery Project which is now in its second year. The project aims to establish the reasons for the low population of hen harriers in England through monitoring the birds and their nests. Radio tracking is being used to follow birds across the English uplands and is producing some interesting results. Young birds have already been recorded moving between the Bowland Fells, the North Yorkshire Moors, the North Pennines and the Yorkshire Dales, often travelling large distances every day. The tracking also showed that a peregrine falcon took a juvenile hen harrier fledged from one of the eight successful English nests. It is hoped that the surviving birds can be tracked back to their moorland breeding sites next spring.

Richard Saunders, the hen harrier recovery project officer said, "Despite its extreme rarity in England, conserving the hen harrier remains unpopular with some people and it is unfortunately still a target for persecution. However, on behalf of English Nature I would like to extend our thanks to the owners and gamekeepers of grouse moors where we have received support and to the Moorland Association, Game Conservancy Trust and RSPB for their continued co-operation and assistance."

The three-year project is considering, in the light of the data gathered so far, the options for the future conservation of this magnificent bird of prey. The project will report to English Nature’s Council with its conclusions and recommendations.

Sir Martin Doughty, Chair of English Nature said, "The hen harrier continues to hang on in low numbers at the brink of extinction in England. Given the adversities this magnificent bird has to contend with, both natural and man-made, it is truly remarkable that it survives at all."


Notes for editors
The hen harrier was once a fairly common and widespread bird in Britain and there are breeding records from many English counties from the early 19th Century. Numbers declined mainly as a result of persecution by those seeking to protect poultry or gamebirds. By the end of the 19th century only a small population of birds survived in the Hebrides in western Scotland and on Orkney.

After the Second World War, the hen harrier started to make a comeback, probably due to a reduction in the number of active gamekeepers and a corresponding drop in the intensity of the persecution. Northern England was recolonised in the mid-1960s and in the 1970s and 1980s up to 25 nesting attempts were made in each year in Cumbria, Derbyshire, Durham, Lancashire, Northumberland and Yorkshire. The population has not increased further and from the mid 1990s there has been a significant downturn in fortunes.

Hen harriers arrive back on their breeding grounds in March and April. The males indulge in spectacular, aerobatic display flights to attract females. The hen harrier has a strong association with heather in England and nests are almost always sited so that the surrounding heather bushes provide cover and protection. A clutch of 4-6 eggs is laid, in April or May, and incubated mainly by the female for about 30 days. The chicks then spend a further 30-40 days in the nest before making their first flight.

Hen harriers feed on both young and adult grouse and as a result, the bird is unpopular with grouse moor owners and game keepers. Studies in Scotland have confirmed that in certain situations, high densities of breeding hen harriers can limit red grouse populations and reduce the number of birds available for shooting.

In a highly unusual incident, several young hen harriers fitted with radio transmitters at a nest in Southern Scotland were found dead at a peregrine’s nest in northern England. These birds, together with the single English hen harrier also killed by a peregrine, are amongst the only examples in the UK where this kind of predation has been recorded.


Contacts
English Nature's National Press Office 01733 455190 out-of-hours 07970 098005 email press@english-nature.org.uk or visit our website at www.english-nature.org.uk
For more information about the Hen Harrier Recovery Project contact Richard Saunders, Hen Harrier Recovery Project Officer – 01539 792800. He would be interested to hear about any sightings of wing-tagged birds.

[saluki]

"Hen Harriers also nest in upland/rough grazing where the soft rush is fairly dense, I've seen several nests built on a platform of dry rush in these areas. Young conifer plantations are also a good nesting site for Harriers, in the late seventies and early eighties these were the preffered sites in northern Scotland".

I agree - I used to see nesting HHs every summer in Argyll on young plantations planted by the FC. What has changed? Harriers certainly aren't persecuted to any degree on FC ground, quite the opposite in fact, and grouse moors are few and far between, certainly in South and Mid Argyll. The old trees are now clear-felled and the branches left to rot down with the saplings planted mechanically. Anyone who has attempted to walk across clear fell will know how hellish it can be, perhaps these conditions make it difficult for the harriers to hunt?

"On the other side of the coin if the grousemoorland was not here where would the Hen Harrier breed.

Lol Spar"

And in what state would the red grouse population be in? In the particular part of the West Pennines I visit regularly, most of the moorland is virtually empty of birdlife bar a few Meadow Pipits. The exception to this is the moorland that is shot over. Besides the grouse there are nesting snipe, curlew and golden plover.

If they prosecuted the shoot owners and fined them the same percentage of their yearly income as they do the keepers, then the killing might stop. It is very easy to blame the keepers, but if not only your job but your home too, was at risk if you didn't get results, then one might think differently. I'm not trying to defend the killing of raptors - I find it as abhorent as anyone, but I believe the way forward is by educating keepers and, more importantly, their employers. They, along with, laterly, the conservation organisations, have been the saviours of British moorland IMO.

saluki

[jayhunter]

I agree with Saluki I don't think it is possible to educate many of the gamekeepers even if they were supplied with relevant data, showing the existence of H.H. increased the grouse numbers. The fines for poisoning said birds should be increased considerably, maybe even in keeping with the rarity of the species, having read the article in November's copy of the BBC Wildlife magazine on the poisoning of the red kite.

[nirofo]

Hi Saluki

You've hit the nail on the head with the state of the majority of the moorlands, very few birds in most areas where the heather is generally in poor condition, either due to continuous burning over a long period or because of heather blight which has been degrading the heather for many years. In other areas where the moor is managed or the heather is in good condition, birds are more plentiful. This also includes Red Grouse, and of course where the birds are plentiful the Raptors (Hen Harrier) will also be present. It's a cleft stick situation, unfortunately if the law is unwilling or unable to provide the level of protection necessary to conserve these Raptors in these more abundant areas, then it won't be long before there's nothing left to conserve.

nirofo.

[CJW]

Originally posted by Spar
On the other side of the coin if the grousemoorland was not here where would the Hen Harrier breed.

Lol Spar

Given that we have only about 20 pairs of Red Grouse confined to two small areas of moorland but we have about 60 pairs of Hen Harriers, not all of them on the moors, I'm not sure the grouse/harrier link is particularly vital. That said, it probably helps that what grouse we do have aren't keepered!

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Spar

Hello CJW.
my point was not that H.H. and grouse are inextricably linked ,but if you have ever been to the Trough of Bowland you will know what a amazing habitat it is.My fear would be that if the shooting estates were absent what would happen to that habitat?,I susspect it would end up the same as Pendle i.e.full of mobile lawnmower`s(sheep),Industrial estates and commuter housing estates.

If anyone is niave enough to think that United Utilities(formerly N.W.W.) would not go down this route, then you are mistaken it is all down to profit and this company like any other will maximise theirs.

Lol Spar

No sheep in the Trough? Have another look

Where in the ToB would United Utilities put the Industrial estates and commuter housing estates?

niave!

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by Spar

Hello Osprayyy,
plenty of sheep in the trough,stick to I.T. Dunsop have you seen the latest I.T.rich Kids planning proposals, let`s say in the last decade.??????? niave me no,what do you do for B.O.P. in our region,by the way we arrested one of your climbing friends in yorkshire last breeding season for I.D.(do you know the law on how near you get to a N.S. has changed.)
Spar enjoy your screen Osprat lol.

Considering I've lived in the vacinity for over 50 years, I'd consider myself more knowledgable than a pip squeak such as you:-0

As for BOP not a lot because those that do 'aint up to it. And until they get the the gumption to do a bit of trespassig on the lands that have the worst record in the bowland fells for persecution of raptors (you must know what estate I mean) don't pontificate! You sound like the RSPB.

There is not much chance that as stated by you that factories would mushroom in the Eastern Bowland area.

1. The roads aren't compatable for heavy traffic.
2. Manufacturing Industries are in decline, no right minded businessman would relocate there:(

HTH

Osprey

[saluki]

Hey Osprey, I'd change your name if I were you. There's an obnoxious prat that uses the same name to troll the UseNet newsgroups. He's a very sad individual who gets his kicks from insulting people. He also goes under the name of Chris Fishwick, John Doe and is currently using the name Trevor Eves. Unfortunately your writing style is very similar to his - in fact the ressemblance is uncanny! So it might be wise to change your name, or those familiar with the aforementioned wannabe troll might start to think you are him, and I can't imagine any sane person would want to be mistaken for such a sado - can you?

saluki

[CJW]

Now then, now then. Behave yourselves.

[Andy Bright]

Originally Posted by saluki

Hey Osprey, I'd change your name if I were you. There's an obnoxious prat that uses the same name to troll the UseNet newsgroups. He's a very sad individual who gets his kicks from insulting people. He also goes under the name of Chris Fishwick, John Doe and is currently using the name Trevor Eves. Unfortunately your writing style is very similar to his - in fact the ressemblance is uncanny! So it might be wise to change your name, or those familiar with the aforementioned wannabe troll might start to think you are him, and I can't imagine any sane person would want to be mistaken for such a sado - can you?

saluki

And who is the worst culprit at accusing people of being trolls on ukrb? You wouldn't want to be associated with him, would you?

This isn't ukrb and we won't allow threads to degenerate into petty squabbling from ukrb posters. Lively and heated discussion is one thing, ridiculous name calling is another. This isn't directed at one individual, but several who seem keen on antagonistic posts.

[Ian Whittle]

Getting interesting this one, but i back Spar on this one, perhaps saluki is onto something?

[saluki]

Point taken Andy. I simply dislike individuals making personal insults towards fellow posters for no apparent reason. I'm sure you know his history on ukrb and others - in future I'll rely on the moderators discretion as to the validity of his opinions.

saluki

[Ian Hart]

Originally Posted by scampo

Haven't they nested before now in Norfolk, Suffolk and Lincs? I imagine they wouldn't bother nesting in the moorland if it wasn't for the grouse - that's a sad fact.

Hen harriers have been pushed out historically from these areas, due to man's urbanisation, farm practices etc and from other habitats, after all the UK landmass is minimal. As to HH's optimising their survival by using moorland and grouse, I've no problem with that, all animals need to be oppurtunitists to survive.

Some members of a certain fraternity seem to consider HH's fair "game" EEK!

Ian Hartley