[alanhill]

Boy, am I depressed at the news that the Government is putting more pressure on local councils to accept windfarm developments? As a conservationist I would be more sympathetic to these ugly mostrosities which are destroying our landscape if I thought they really made a difference. But even if the whole country was covered in them they would only generate a piddling amount of electricity, far less than would be conserved if we adopted serious measures to reduce our power consumption. But some 'conservation' bodies, for example the RSPB, are tied in to major funding from energy companies like United Utilities (a major windfarm developer and funding provider for the RSPB), so are very guarded on the subject and certainly don't publicise the growing number of reports that show a detrimental effect on birds and other wildlife from windfarms - eg the recent studies from Spain that document their negative effect on the movement and migration of birds there, particularly raptors.

As a serious walker/birdwatcher/landscape lover I am quite horrified. What do you feel?

Alan Hill

[Andrew Rowlands]

Hi Alan,

I feel equally horrified, especially as they say they do no significant damage to wildlife - BS!

They keep quoting the Altamont Pass 'studies'; If I recall it correctly, they credited several people for running the feeding station outside the area but only one person for checking for corpses!

Doesn't sound very scientific to me; three or four guys doing all they can to lure the raptors away from the site, whilst leaving one to collect the real data from hundreds of turbines.

Horrified,

Andy.

[Mike D]

Originally Posted by alanhill

a detrimental effect on birds and other wildlife from windfarms - eg the recent studies from Spain that document their negative effect on the movement and migration of birds there, particularly raptors.

As a serious walker/birdwatcher/landscape lover I am quite horrified. What do you feel?

Alan Hill

Living in Norfolk, working in the 'Oil Industry' and being a member of the RSPB I think I might add a little oil to the fire.

Alan, Spanish 'sportsmen' tote 12-bore shotguns and shoot anything that flies, as I am sure you are aware. So who are the Spanish to make comment? So do the French, Portuguese, Italians and so on ad nauseum . . . . "Larks Tongues, Monsieur????"
Off the Norfolk coast we have a number of gas platforms which have been in production since the mid-sixties. Up until fairly recently these used to burn off 'Flare' unwanted side-products, as did the oil platforms to the North. We also have an old established wind farm. When it comes to bird mortality I know which produces the lower head-count.

Most migrating birds fly at relatively high altitude, well above the turbines and out of harm's way. They get drawn, moth-like to the flares. But what about lighthouses?

But, back to draining the swamp:
I agree with you that the amount of power the turbines will produce is 'Piddling'. It is also expensive, financially as well as environmentally.

No one ever asks how much it costs the environment to actually build one of the Martian Invaders. Concrete, for example, produces a lot of CO2 during production. The metals, plastics and so on also burn up their share of natural resources and produce undesireable by-products.
They are an eye-sore, but who ever worried about that? Vis the huge line of metal soldiers marching across our countryside so that we can flick a switch and get light.

I have mixed emotions with regard to the installation we are soon to be blessed with off Great Yarmouth. Thinking about it, could you run your private dwelling with a turbine? If so, how big would it have to be? Multiply this by the number of private dwellings in UK and you get a large number. Now let's look at industry. 'Nuff said!

So this brings me to the question of 'What are the alternatives?'

We have a government trying to appease the Greens, the Lefts and the Rights. We have Nuclear-, Oil-, Hydro- and Coal-fired power stations. Name one these which does not damage the environment.

Sizewell A and B are both huge blots on my landscape. I remember Sizewell as a quiet fishing village, actually it was just a collection of a few houses almost on the beach, before they came and drove their survey pegs in between the Sea Holly. Now we cannot stand on Dunwich Cliff and take a natural photo looking South. And as for the Sea Holly????

Dunno. Yes, appalled, disillusioned, feeling pretty helpless. But at least the fishermen won't be able to claim that the turbines are robbing them of their livelihoods. There ain't no fishermen!

Mike

[pauco]

Hi Allan.
just horrified, and a little pi**ed of with the RSPB.
did you read there excuse in this months birds mag?
bert.

[alanhill]

Many thanks to those who have replied to my thread. I started with a major concern that windfarms were springing up all over our countryside though their benefits in terms of ‘alternative energy’ were very questionable. I was worried about the despoiling of the visual beauty of the landscape; the costs in terms of visual impact and noise seemed to far outweigh the benefits. Since writing my first post I have come across more and more evidence that bird populations near windfarms, and migrating birds, are heavily under threat.
In Navarre in Spain it is estimated that 6500 birds and 650 bats are killed yearly by wind turbines. In the Altamont Pass in California half of the 1000 birds killed annually are protected species of raptors: golden eagles, red-tailed hawks, burrowing owls and American kestrels. Further south another windfarm development is estimated to have killed 7000 migrating birds (source: California Energy Commission). In Nasudden, Norway, researchers found 49 dead birds at the foot of one turbine during a single night of migration.
As I said earlier, the RSPB seems very muted in its response to such reports, and I strongly suspect is because they are receiving substantial funding (I hope to find out exactly how much) from United Utilities, a major developer of windfarms.
I sincerely hope that protests such as those at Scout Moor near Rochdale, Cefn Croes in Wales, the Isle of Syke in Scotland and Whinash in Cumbria, gather sufficient momentum to put a halt to the unacceptable damage that will be inflicted on our environment and our bird life.

Alan Hill

[Jane Turner]

I have a relatively open mind about wind farms. I think the experiement needs doing. I can see 24 offshore turbines and 4 gas platforms from where I am. Visually the turbines are less annoying than the gas platforms! I'm sure gas flares cause losses, and Lighthouses can account for far more than 49 deaths in one night.

The real solution is to place lower energy requirments on our planet... but that just doesn't seem to be happening.


So yes I have worries about them, but I think there is a need to experiement and in the end turbines are easier to dismantle than nucelar power stations.

[nirofo]

What with diminishing fossil fuels (coal, gas and oil) and the constant war against nuclear fision (it's the only sustainable energy source we've got). Has anyone stopped to think what the countryside will look like if we are to depend on windmills for almost all our renewable energy. The poor irregular output would mean we need a colossal amount right throughout the country, imagine how many will be needed to run London where the government makes these silly announcements. Will the ministers and HRH settle for 50 or maybe 100 windmills in Hyde Park, or even worse, how about 10 or so in the grounds of Buckingham Palace????

[Edward woodwood]

a few wind farms are better than being under water. we've got em over here in nNorfolk and it's fine. The stakes are way way too high to worry about a few decflines in bird pops - birds are declining all over the world already. If we're gonna complain about the minor damage they may do then we ought to be doing much more about the major declines that are already happening....are you? seems it's just a way to bash the govt and RSPB to me?

At least it's a step in the right direction - Lets stop whinging and back a positive step towards renewable energy. It's a start and as impt for its symbolism as anything else. Gotta go to bed now to get up early for an OBC meeting in Cambridge so no birding for me tomorrow - am I wasting my time?

[Andrew Rowlands]

The sooner we see some dollars being put into energy conservation the better.

We cannot hope to reduce our dependency on the 'unlimited' supply of fossil fuels until the American politicians face the facts, and lead the world in saving this precious resource.

Andy.

[Jane Turner]

Sort of hoping they will colour code the ones off here. It would make getting other people onto seabirds a whole lot easier!

[Andrew Rowlands]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

Sort of hoping they will colour code the ones off here. It would make getting other people onto seabirds a whole lot easier!

Saves having to explain what a degree is; or a quarter...third...

Andy.

PS. what if they are colour blind? Numbers?

[Jane Turner]

Counting from the right I guess....

It goes Liverpool.....gas rig, three navigational buoys..., gas rig, gas rig...24 windmills, radio mast...naviagtional buoy, Great Orme...Hilbre Island, in a 180° sweep. The horizon is getting cluttered... Blackpool tower is visible in clear weather too

[Andrew Rowlands]

Originally Posted by Jane Turner

Counting from the right I guess....

It goes Liverpool.....gas rig, three navigational buoys..., gas rig, gas rig...24 windmills, radio mast...naviagtional buoy, Great Orme...Hilbre Island, in a 180° sweep. The horizon is getting cluttered... Blackpool tower is visible in clear weather too

I take that it must be from right to left?

Do you dream in Arabic?

Hebrew?

Andy.

[Jane Turner]

Its the way the birds all go..... every passing seabird is getting out of Liverpool bay.... just a few gannets and gulls on feeding movements go the other way!

[alanhill]

A fairly important point about windfarms is that they don't reduce the number of conventional power stations needed. Energy isn't storable and there must always be enough capacity to provide for the needs of the grid, so when the wind isn't blowing, or blowing too hard, all that capacity has to come from conventional sources (nuclear, gas, oil, coal); thus you must have sufficient conventional capacity to provide for the times when you can't use the wind. And when the wind is blowing with just the right speed, you can't close down the conventional stations, you just have to put them into reduced mode, which then reduces their efficiency.

Alan Hill

[christineredgate]

Cumbria is high on the list for these wind turbines and meetings have been held in local villages.I have read reports which say that they do not harm the birds or the environment.We also have near to us the main Nuclear power station in the country -Sellafield.
Which will do the most harm to the environment and indeed the sea water and creatures it contains,Nuclear Fuel or the Wind Turbines.!!.
Personally ,I cannot see that the wind turbines are going to generate sufficient energy to keep us all going in power,esp in this day and age when almost everything needs power,as indeed i am submitting this post!!.But which would you rather see.Huge power stations,or wind turbines,
Christine.

[Jane Turner]

Did you know that 111 Grasshopper Warblers were killed at the Bardsey Lighthouse in a single night?

[IanF]

I have been following this thread with interest as there are plans a foot for a wind farm to be constructed by the Tees Estuary at South Gare in what is just about the best area we have on the Tees for migrants and waders. I was a little concerned when I first heard of the plans, but when it comes down to it, if they don't cause any harm to the birds then other than the awful sight of them blighting the landscape, there won't be much chance or indeed need to object to their presence. At least they will be in the sea and not spoiling the landscape so much.

My area was free of them until very recently, when two wind turbines were built alongside the A19 a few miles north of here, though there have been windfarms in the NE region, most notably at Cassop and Blyth for a few years now. I can't say that I am very impressed by the sight of them. They are an abomination and ruin the landscape. However if they are as good a source of renewal energy as is being claimed then they must be given consideration. I just dread the thought that in a few years time the countryside will be full of them and you'll be hard pressed even in the more scenic areas of the country to get a view not containing one of them.

My local bird clubs have asked members to comment on the proposed development of the one at South Gare. I'd appreciate any info / links to useful sites if anyone has them. I've done a bit of research on-line, but haven't found that much on the effects of them on birds.

[Andrew Rowlands]

Originally Posted by IanF

(snip)
My local bird clubs have asked members to comment on the proposed development of the one at South Gare. I'd appreciate any info / links to useful sites if anyone has them. I've done a bit of research on-line, but haven't found that much on the effects of them on birds.

I have some info and links, I'll try to go through them this coming week.

PM me if you don't see anything by the weekend.....I may be busy!

Cheers,

Andy.

[Edward woodwood]

er.......don't cats kill far more birds than wind farms will?

this 'birders against wind farms' thing is baffling me

we go on and on for years about the problems of global wearming and then decry a major step in the right direction, as important symbolically as practically

I spoke to a few birders/scientists from University of East Anglia the other day and they view birders agaisnt wind farms as severley misguided

Yes, some birds may get killed but what's the alternative. As a few others have said above we've got to wake up, and sharpish

[Jane Turner]

As I posted up there somewhere... the Bardesy light accounted for more than 500 warblers in a single night (inc >100 Groppers). Enormous numbers of migrants fail to cross the North Sea.... many hit overhead power cables....windows...cars.....



There will assuredly be ways of reducing losses, but without building and testing, how will we know?

[Michael Frankis]

It isn't killing birds in general that is causing concern, it is killing particular species in high numbers, well above what the population can sustain.

Highest concern is for vultures & eagles - large birds with very low reproductive rates and (normally) very long life expectancy. One gets killed; the others see it lying dead there, and do what comes naturally to vultures - they gather at the carrion, and then get killed themselves.

600 Griffon Vultures killed at one windfarm in Spain is NOT sustainable.

Neither is 700 Golden Eagles killed in one year alone at a windfarm in California.

Michael

[Jane Turner]

Not huge numbers of either in North Sea or Irish sea though Michael.... the comments was related to UK policy. I agree that it is not viable to put wind farms in the migration path of large diurnal raptors.

[Reader]

This obviously is a very sore point with a lot of people. We do need ways of generating electricity that is Environment friendly but as Alan has put it, in his opening thread, just how much electricity is generated by each wind farm. Just how much of the UK will have to be used to generate enough for it to become a viable option.

Luckily I don't have any near where I live. I only come into contact with them on my birding forays but one place that really brought it home to me was Tarifa, in Spain. It has completely spoilt that area and what was once an excellent raptor viewpoint has been wrecked. I would have said that that was my own opinion but I have found many people that agree with me. It not only is very ugly it also kills many raptors and other birds.

I take Tim's point on cats but we can't use one comparison to stop a discussion about a seperate entity. The possible coverage of our landscape is not condusive to safe bird passage to low flying birds and thats a fact. The problem is do we accept wind farms and all the problems that go with them i.e ugliness and bird kills etc for the sake of environmental friendly power generation.

If we don't, what is the alternative?