[Reader]

Hi all

This is the 2nd photo. See what you think?

Regards
John J

[Harry Hussey]

Hi John J,
Although I have never seen Crag Martin,I think that you have no problems here,they seem to be Crag Martins.In particular,note the contrast between the darker underwing coverts and the rest of the underwing and the lack of a breastband(as on Sand Martin)
I hope to find one of these with a hirundine flock locally some day,would cause great excitement!!!!
Harry

[Reader]

Harry

The problem is that I have seen hundreds of Crag Martins and I doubted very much if these two birds were Crag Martins. My impression was of another species of Martin but I need someone to give them a cloe look. The Alvor ringing station thought that I was possibly right but wouldn't commit themselves until they actually saw the birds in situ, which of course didn't happen.

[Harry Hussey]

OK,but it's clearly not any of the commoner European species.What about Rock Martin?More likely to be aberrant Crag Martins?
Harry

[Reader]

Now your hot Harry. That was the conclusion I came to, Rock Martin. I need an expert to give it a good look over. I'm not sure that the description together with the photos is enough to nail it down though. Its range doesn't quite reach the Mediterranean on the African continent and is thought not to reach the European shores, at least that is what I have been told.

[jeff]

Not sure if this will help confirm your ID, but upon checking the web for rock martin and portugal i came across this check list of birds of portugal, it appears rock martin Ptyonoprogne fuligula is on it, so maybe not a first for Portugal after all.


http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

[Reader]

Thanks for that Jeff. It was 3 & a half years ago when I saw those birds. I still have not had them confirmed allthough I am relatively happy with my ID.

I wonder if there is a way of doing a search of Rock Martin in Portugal that would throw up actual sightings together with where seen and the dates seen on. Now that would be interesting to me if that could be acheived.

[Andy Thatcher]

Could be the light of the photo but they do seem a little dark for Rock Martins but as said that could be the light.

I wonder if they are juve Crags especially as you mention them having a jerky flight as Rocks are as graceful as any other Martin. May should just about see a chance of first fledging in Portugal.

The other thing worth looking at is that the underwing coverts are definitely starkly contrasted with the rest of the wing.

I think I'll plump for juve Crag Martin.

[Reader]

Andy

You can't really go by the light as I was esing my camera attached to myscope and these birds were not that close. Using that system I lost quite a bit of light.

A few things that made me sure that they weren't Crag Martins were:

A) clean white throat, without markings, Crags have speckled throats. You can see the white throat on the photo.

B) The underwing is far lighter than I would expect a Crag to be.

In the end you may be right but I watched these birds for over an hour and was convinced that they were not Crag Martins. I have encountered Crag Martins many times, in fact I saw a few not long after watching these two birds but in a different location.

[Andy Thatcher]

Trouble is that I have seen a fair few Rock and Crag Martins but I haven't seen many, sorry, any juve's. I should be back in Spain around April/May time and hopefully will be able to see if those spots are present in young Crag's.

[Mark D]

John,
I'm a bit late to this debate but I too beleive your birds to be Crag rather than Rock Martin. It's not just the carpal area thats dark on the underwing, you can see in the latest image there are some of the coverts showing dark also. The underparts appear to be brown-buff and not pale as in Rock Martin. If they were Rock would the paleness of the throat continue onto the breast?
The head also appears to be too warm dark brown, without a pale forehead.
As you have stated the Rock Martins population doesn't get as far as the Med. Sea, BUT it is also a resident in it's closest range to europe and therefore unlikely to turn up.

Mark