Reed? Warblers, Spain (1 Viewer)

[rollingthunder]

Stop talking Balearics.....

 

[opisska]

Fascinating stuff zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Actually, if we wait long enough I’m sure someone will be proposing Balearic Reed Warbler as another possible species

But it actually is fascinating. Maybe not everyone stumbling onto this thread has read this one where the topic is discussed, in particular the two linked papers

http://www.magornitho.org/files/2016/12/olsson-et-al-2016-phylogeny-reed-warbler.pdf
https://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal/pdf/DB_2010_32_1.pdf#page=33

are quite interesting - there apparently has been a rather differing population of Reed Warbler in Morocco, under everyone's nose, in an easily accessed country, until a few years ago? How is that not fascinating!

 

[rollingthunder]

It is:t:

I watched Reed Warblers in Maroc at Oulidia, aware that there are supposed to be different ones, i could not fathom any audible or discernible difference so maybe it is biometrics?

On a different note i am very much looking forward to visiting Poland for 10 days birding on Saturday:t: My first new fact is that i did not know Chopin was Polish.....despite naming the airport we land at after him:eek!:

Good Birding -

Laurie:t:

 

[opisska]

It is:t:

I watched Reed Warblers in Maroc at Oulidia, aware that there are supposed to be different ones, i could not fathom any audible or discernible difference so maybe it is biometrics?

On a different note i am very much looking forward to visiting Poland for 10 days birding on Saturday:t: My first new fact is that i did not know Chopin was Polish.....despite naming the airport we land at after him:eek!:

Good Birding -

Laurie:t:

Enjoy Poland! If you need something in particular, you can drop me a message here. The only drawback is that it is quite late in the season for a lot of things (don't even dream about Greater Snipe in June imo) and that after the heatwave we had in the last week, the mosquitoes are out of bounds. Be glad you land at Chopin, because Modlin is infested including all indoors areas - but looking at people dancing madly around the baggage claim trying to get bitten as little as possible was quite fun

 

[Richard Prior]

No more humour from me then (sighs of relief echoing around the Birdforum world no doubt).
I’m still having an internal debate over whether to add Balearic Flycatcher to my life list after visiting Majorca in late May 1980......

 

[rollingthunder]

Thanks i will pass in your warnings to The Bride who is a Mosquito magnet.
I am only up at Goniadz for 3 days, Gdansk for 2 then down to the German border on the Baltic. I am looking forward to seeing breeding birds that i have only ever seen as scarcites or vagrants here - all on foot and bike hire.

Anything to getaway from the rain here mate:C

Laurie:t:

 

[rollingthunder]

Just followed your links re: Reed Warbler articles.....

Good Lord:eek!: if you spend time ploughing thru and de-ciphering that on long Winter nights no wonder you are on Wife number 3

Laurie:t:

 

[Blue Kangaroo]

I checked the top ten WP IOC Listers on Bubo
9 list African Reed Warbler
Jan. Morocco
April. Morocco
May. Morocco
June. Morocco
June. Spain
June. Egypt

 

[Simon Wates]

I checked the top ten WP IOC Listers on Bubo
9 list African Reed Warbler

June. Spain

I'm genuinely interested to know on what criteria this was clinched and where. Mainly because of my local breeding Reeds here in south Portugal

 

[Blue Kangaroo]

I'm genuinely interested to know on what criteria this was clinched and where. Mainly because of my local breeding Reeds here in south Portugal

The Spain June record is from a place called Pinzon Marshes.

 

[KenM]

But it actually is fascinating. Maybe not everyone stumbling onto this thread has read this one where the topic is discussed, in particular the two linked papers

http://www.magornitho.org/files/2016/12/olsson-et-al-2016-phylogeny-reed-warbler.pdf
https://www.dutchbirding.nl/journal/pdf/DB_2010_32_1.pdf#page=33

are quite interesting - there apparently has been a rather differing population of Reed Warbler in Morocco, under everyone's nose, in an easily accessed country, until a few years ago? How is that not fascinating!

It didn’t take long 2nd or 3rd paragraph...for me to ask myself what I was doing?....I came into Birding “chasing rainbows” hunting down odd calls and songs, then when finding the offender, placing the colours and tones into a pre-ordained shape to arrive at an ID. This may as well have been Einstein’s theory of relativity, I’d be very circumspect if “yer” average birder could digest, retain and understand this paper?

So just in case this isn’t a return of the “king’s new clothes”, I’ll defer to the rank and file to comment....I’m for lumping.

 

[Simon Wates]

The Spain June record is from a place called Pinzon Marshes.

Thanks, so on the eastern side of the Rio Guadalqivir mear Brazo del Este - great area. Not so far from S.Portugal.........

 

[Blue Kangaroo]

No problem Simon.
I also found this. Its a bit further away but may be of use to others.
African Bird Club report 50 to 100 African Reed Warblers were COUNTED. In January at the Tunsian wetlands of Douz, Zaafrane and Ghidma.

 

[opisska]

Well but in any of these reports, one has to really ask, how was the species determined, no? Because people claim all sorts of things by all sorts of measures ... The method of "determination by someone else having done it before" isn't in itself any more reliable.

 

[KenM]

No problem Simon.
I also found this. Its a bit further away but may be of use to others.
African Bird Club report 50 to 100 African Reed Warblers were COUNTED. In January at the Tunsian wetlands of Douz, Zaafrane and Ghidma.

Fascinating in it’s own right opisska, It would be great if the wing biometrics were all confirmed as the same!

For me it’s a revelation that there is a race of African Reed Warbler that doesn’t have to cross the Sahara to overwinter.

Cheers

 

[johnallcock]

John, I’m commenting on some material that was sent to me last week regarding the existence of a number of taxons which I’d never heard of, one of which was A.ambiguous showing very short rounded wings, quite unlike A.scirpaceous. Needless to say I found this somewhat intriguing, with Spanish/Moroccan and African Reed Warbler being mentioned (with the first two as putative short distance migrants) in the article, with possibilities of being split in the future.....?

I realised that you were referring to these interesting shorter-winged birds in Iberia (ambiguus) that may be short-distance migrants.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but I thought that you were arguing that to guarantee that you were seeing this taxon, you should visit the area in mid-winter because all scirpaceus would have migrated to sub-Saharan Africa, so all birds remaining must be ambiguus. You then quoted an example of scirpaceus overwintering in London. Given this example, scirpaceus could presumably overwinter in Iberia, so a wintering bird in Spain could still be either taxon. You would still have the same ID problems as now.

 

[KenM]

I realised that you were referring to these interesting shorter-winged birds in Iberia (ambiguus) that may be short-distance migrants.

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but I thought that you were arguing that to guarantee that you were seeing this taxon, you should visit the area in mid-winter because all scirpaceus would have migrated to sub-Saharan Africa, so all birds remaining must be ambiguus. You then quoted an example of scirpaceus overwintering in London. Given this example, scirpaceus could presumably overwinter in Iberia, so a wintering bird in Spain could still be either taxon. You would still have the same ID problems as now.

I think a x’d wire John....I suggested that if opisska were to visit the Iberian peninsula in Winter, now my words...”you might be in with a chance”.

“Might” and “chance” being the “operative”.

Cheers

 

[Nutcracker]

Recent article here on Reed Warblers starting to winter extensively on the Iberian Peninsula. No discussion of which [sub]species involved, or on the origin of the wintering birds, though.

 

[KenM]

Recent article here on Reed Warblers starting to winter extensively on the Iberian Peninsula. No discussion of which [sub]species involved, or on the origin of the wintering birds, though.

Thanks for that Nutty, very interesting indeed...it makes you wonder what other tran-Saharan species might be attempting to do the same?

The 2014 over-Wintering London “Leytonstone Roundabout” Reed Warbler (basically a c80m “long island” with a steep-sided drainage ditch) surrounded by a road system, also had in attendance at the time (certainly until late Dec.) two Common Whitethroats. Regarding the RW, it didn’t resemble any RW that I’ve, or indeed anybody else had seen, with yellow bare parts, white unders, and a gingery cast to the uppers...Fuscus was suggested at the time....