Scandinavian Rock vs Water - Inland Sea, Anglesey (1 Viewer)

[JWN Andrewes]

Thought Water to start with, then remembered about the pitfalls of Scandinavian Rock and became unsure. I'll do some digging online & hit the books too, but thought I'd pop it on here to see what others think. I'm leaning towards Scandy Rock at the moment. Oh, and there were two of them, looked the same but I only got pics of one.

 

[Alexander Stöhr]

Hello,
I can just start with the Water vs Rock Pipit issue. Its a Rock Pipit for me, please note:

• clear=evident caramell-cream/brownish-buff hues to the underparts. Water Pipits are either white/whitish (without any colour hue) or whitish-greyish or have only the faintest, slightest possible colour suffusion there.
• streaks to the underparts are better for Rock Pipit imo, although your bird isnt an ID-book bird for either species

And more? Yes, I agree with you, your bird is brightly, pleasent (no offense to all Rock Pipits!) and warm coloured for a Rock Pipit. But I cant ID your bird to subspecies level with confidence. Like you, I hope for others to jump in.

I presume from your post, that you already know this?

http://www.manchesterbirding.com/uploads/9/7/5/1/97513866/logicalityoflittoralisianmckerchar2007manchesterbirding.pdf

 

[Stonefaction]

Rock Pipit for me too. Underside markings a bit too 'smudgy' for Water.

 

[JWN Andrewes]

Thanks folks, pretty much accords with my own thoughts, particularly having had a rummage through the internet (including Alexander's link). It was the combination of rather pale underparts, whitish super and white outer tail that threw me.

 

[Redmist]

Another vote for rock here in case you were still in any doubt. I’m certainly no expert on regional rock pipit variations but this bird is definitely similar to the winter plumage RPs we get here on Norway’s south west coast.

 

[pianoman]

Rock Pipit, but I wouldn't say Scandinavian, the supercilium is not particularly strong and the streaking is quite smudged.

 

[dantheman]

I was under the impression that there is a fair influx of Rock Pipits from Scandinavia bolstering the UK population in winter, but aside particularly well-marked or individuals moving into breeding plumage in spring, they are to a degree pretty much indistinguishable from locals or UK moving birds? (Or at least not safely from variation of all).

 

[pianoman]

Yes, not so distinguishable in winter. Looks to me to be within parameters to be Petrosus, so I guess it's a question of how likely is it to be from Scandinavia - don't know the answer to that. Pretty unusual in my neck of the woods but perhaps much more likely in E. England

 

[Redmist]

That was my understanding too dantheman and pianoman, that in many cases it will be very difficult if not impossible in winter plumage to differentiate local vs scandinavian birds. Here is just one I took last winter (in SW Norway). This article gives some criteria to identify littoralis, and describes a stronger supercilium in head on views, and the contrasting paler throat that you can see in this bird, while also showing examples of how hard it can be in mamy examples.

 

[JWN Andrewes]

Thanks for all the input folks. One if the features that led me away from petrosus as an ID is the white outer tail, evident in the field and can be seen to some extent on the photos. Was I hasty to use this feature in this way?

 

[Redmist]

It’s noted as a fairly reliable feature in the article I linked, but I’ve not used that as a criteria myself and am most experienced with littoralis in Scandinavia. Hope to hear from others on this one

 

[JWN Andrewes]

It’s noted as a fairly reliable feature in the article I linked, but I’ve not used that as a criteria myself and am most experienced with littoralis in Scandinavia. Hope to hear from others on this one

Cheers Redmist. Link's not opening on my phone, I'll try the laptop later.

 

[Brian J Small]

This by Per Alstrom is still a great article. Note he doesn't differentiate between littoralius and petrosus in winter...

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Per-Alstroem-2/publication/269392341_The_identification_of_Rock_Water_and_Buff-bellied_Pipits/links/54884da10cf289302e3089ce/The-identification-of-Rock-Water-and-Buff-bellied-Pipits.pdf

Brian