SE England- Svensson's Copper Underwing? (1 Viewer)

[billsbirding]

Hi,

I am curious as to whether this is a Svensson's Copper Underwing or Copper Underwing? Its just that I found this moth back in July which doesn't fit the flight season of Copper Underwing, but does however with Svensson's.

Ideas anyone?

 

[hjalava]

Yes, looks like berbera to me.

 

[Bennyboymothman]

Both of the Copper Underwing's have similiar flight-times and this should not be used to seperate them initially. Many people use the Palps to tell the difference, also the amount of copper flush on the underside of the hindwing is another factor.
There is still lots of issues regarding how definitive these features are to distinguish each species.

 

[billsbirding]

Thanks guys, forgive me I'm new to this! So do you both agree with berbera?

 

[davidg]

The only way I can separate the two is by looking at the underside of the hindwing, the difference between the two is then obvious. You do have to knock the moth out first though. The palp method has been discredited in the past year or so.

David

 

[Marcus Lawson]

You do have to knock the moth out first though.
David

David, can I ask please how you knock them out, do you use some sort of anaesthetic?

Many thanks
Marcus

 

[Bennyboymothman]

The copper flush if your lucky can be visible through a clear pot, it depends how tightly they have their wings rolled!

 

[joshjenkinsshaw]

David, can I ask please how you knock them out, do you use some sort of anaesthetic?

Many thanks
Marcus

Marcus, see this thread http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=149067

 

[davidg]

David, can I ask please how you knock them out, do you use some sort of anaesthetic?

Many thanks
Marcus

A squirt of CO2 will do the job nicely. The moth is completely out for 30 seconds or so (depends on the size of the moth, the amount of CO2 etc) which is plenty of time to sneak a look at the underwings. The moth makes a full recovery and, as far as I'm aware, there is no chance of an accidental overdose cf Ethyl acetate.

I use Sparklets cylinders (used to make carbonated drinks) which fit into a thing called a Corkmaster - a device resembling a large syringe. All available on Ebay.

This is also a nifty way of getting photos of reluctant moths - particularly micros and geometrids. Once the initial effect of the CO2 is past the moth will usually return to its natural resting posture and will often stay still for quite some time, allowing you to snap away.

David

 

[harry eales]

A squirt of CO2 will do the job nicely. The moth is completely out for 30 seconds or so (depends on the size of the moth, the amount of CO2 etc) which is plenty of time to sneak a look at the underwings. The moth makes a full recovery and, as far as I'm aware, there is no chance of an accidental overdose cf Ethyl acetate.

I use Sparklets cylinders (used to make carbonated drinks) which fit into a thing called a Corkmaster - a device resembling a large syringe. All available on Ebay.

This is also a nifty way of getting photos of reluctant moths - particularly micros and geometrids. Once the initial effect of the CO2 is past the moth will usually return to its natural resting posture and will often stay still for quite some time, allowing you to snap away.

David

I agree with David, I have used the same device for over 20 years. It's far less damaging to the insect than the more volatile noxious gasses usually used. It can work out expensive on Sparklet Bulbs as they seem to leak slowly and empty in about three days, but if you have a number on insects to do it is a valuable tool.

Don't use it for it's original purpose, that of opening wine bottles by injecting gas through the cork into the wine. This tool was withdrawn because some wine bottles blew up when the tool was used.

Harry

 

[davidg]

I agree with David, I have used the same device for over 20 years. It's far less damaging to the insect than the more volatile noxious gasses usually used. It can work out expensive on Sparklet Bulbs as they seem to leak slowly and empty in about three days, but if you have a number on insects to do it is a valuable tool.
Harry

Hi Harry - was it you I got the idea from, I wonder? I also wonder if there might be something wrong with your corkmaster. I get the occasional bulb that empties very quickly but for the most part they last for weeks.

David

 

[joshjenkinsshaw]

Having noticed a grave yard of Copper Underwings building up in cobwebs in the garage, I decided to collect a few specimens and check their underwings. I confirmed 2 dead Svensson's Copper Underwing with the extensive copper flush on the underside of the hindwing. Everyone, go look in your garages!

 

[Bennyboymothman]

Having noticed a grave yard of Copper Underwings building up in cobwebs in the garage, I decided to collect a few specimens and check their underwings. I confirmed 2 dead Svensson's Copper Underwing with the extensive copper flush on the underside of the hindwing. Everyone, go look in your garages!

Heh

I would but I let them all out in July, went to get the mower out and they were all over the back of the door, all 13 of them.

 

[DaveJones]

Yes, looks like berbera to me.

Me too:t:

 

[billsbirding]

Obviously, it is going to be quite hard to look at the underside of the hindwing of a live Copper Underwing, so I was wondering if someone could give me some more obvious features to look for when telling apart Svensson's and Copper? Oh, nearly forgot to thank you all for your comments!

 

[Brian Stone]

Not really. All other features are more subjective and indicative.

Another method of putting a moth to sleep is a carefully timed spell in the freezer. About as dangerous for the moth as the ethyl acetate method though as too long will kill it. Keep increasing the time until you have it docile enough to handle.

 

[Marcus Lawson]

Thank you chaps for your answers.