Short-toed or Eurasian Treecreeper in the Netherlands--Drents-Friese Wold (1 Viewer)

[Tom St]

Photos taken on 27th Feb 2021 in Drents-Friese Wold, Netherlands.
I usually only ID treecreepers by voice. But in this instance, I happened to snap photos of one. Out of curiosity, I tried to confirm Short-toed (which is the default species in the Netherlands and which I heard singing on that same hike) visually based on the photos. But if I interpret the Collins pointers regarding the wing bar correctly, this looks like a Eurasian to me.
Thanks for your help!

 

[Prestdj]

ive come to same conclusion with collins field guide

 

[HouseCrow]

The black square seems to be there but your wingbar is rather less neat and tidy than you would hope to see to give it a positive ID. Also the flank of familiaris should be white. Of course the brownish smudge could be shadow or dirt, but it does not look like it.

Not saying it is not one, but I strongly doubt it.

cheers,
G

edit: post edited in some ways

 

[Butty]

the flank of familiaris should be white

Not according to the Svensson guide: should be 'slight brown tinge'. You may be looking at the wrong race. No offence intended, and please excuse any perceived lack of 'gentleness'.

 

[HouseCrow]

Hi Butty,
I thought nordic familiaris were whiter than Northern Dutch birds (megarhynchos). Central European brachydactyla a grade lighter than mega. (drawings in a 1999 guide (Svensson, Mullarney, Zetterström, Grant) suggest that too, although colours are very much more subtle than in the subject bird.


I only suggested this because I wanted to add a little nuance to the thread. The bird seemed at least not to be a clearcut familiaris. I am by no means an expert on the subject....obviously.

cheers,
G

 

[lou salomon]

small white tips to primaries strongly indicate STT. also white running a bit along the front edge of the alula is a pro STT. that step in the bar can be confusing, as it seems to be pretty variable in both species.

 

[Butty]

that step in the bar can be confusing, as it seems to be pretty variable in both species

Here and elsewhere I have gained the impression that it is about as much-vaunted, and as useless, a feature as are 'differences' in flank-streaking between tree pipit and meadow pipit. And leg-thickness in sharp-shinned hawk/Cooper's hawk. And... (I'll stop there.)

 

[Tom St]

Thank you for all the answers! Certainly an educational thread for me.
Conclusion: this is a Short-toed Treecreeper.
It really makes me wonder why the wingbar is presented as an ID feature by some sources. Meadow/Tree Pipit flank streaking did indeed come to my mind too.

 

[THE_FERN]

Thank you for all the answers! Certainly an educational thread for me.
Conclusion: this is a Short-toed Treecreeper.
It really makes me wonder why the wingbar is presented as an ID feature by some sources. Meadow/Tree Pipit flank streaking did indeed come to my mind too.

About the wing bar...

Personally, I think it's a good mark provided the views/images are of good enough quality. (In this case I didn't think it was clearly enough european but the images aren't great to judge). I'm not sure any of the id characters should be used in isolation.

 

[Butty]

I think it's a good mark provided the views/images are of good enough quality. (In this case I didn't think it was clearly enough european but the images aren't great to judge).

I'm a bit puzzled by this. I consider both the OP's photos to be fully of high-enough quality to judge the shape of the wing-bar precisely. I would say it's the criterion that is the problem - not the photos.

 

[Xenospiza]

Yes, if even on these pictures the usually failure proof wing bar feature does not work anymore that is quite disconcerting.
However, the "jagged edge" of the wing bar points towards Short-toed (as does the length of the nail on the hind toe).
The shafts of the tail feathers are also good for Short-toed.
Check this long thread in Dutch on the waarneming.nl forum with some nice pictures: 'boomkruipers', hoe waardevol zijn 'de' kenmerken?

I haven't yet managed to take a convincing picture of any of my local treecreepers (both species occur)...

 

[Tom St]

I'm not sure any of the id characters should be used in isolation.

I guess this has to be the takeaway from this thread.
Though I have to humbly disagree about the image quality not being good enough to judge the wingbar.

 

[antbird53]

Here and elsewhere I have gained the impression that it is about as much-vaunted, and as useless, a feature as are 'differences' in flank-streaking between tree pipit and meadow pipit.

So are you saying that there is no difference in flank-streaking between MeadowPipit and Tree Pipit?

 

[Butty]

I'm saying it's too variable in both species to be of any particular use. Several past threads on here have attested to that. Heresy, I know - but there y'go. Golden plovers used to be thought not to have a wing-bar (if you or the books in your library are old enough for that).

 

[antbird53]

I'm saying it's too variable in both species to be of any particular use. Several past threads on here have attested to that. Heresy, I know - but there y'go. Golden plovers used to be thought not to have a wing-bar (if you or the books in your library are old enough for that).

Sadly I am old enough to remember Golden Plovers 'not having wing-bars'. Indeed I have notes from the '60's puzzling over the fact that I could see they had wing bars, contra the field guides.
I don't suppose I would ever use flank-streaking on it's own to separate Tree and Meadow Pipit, but would use it in conjunction with other features; neverthless in my limited experience I'd say it is a useful pointer.

 

[THE_FERN]

I'm a bit puzzled by this. I consider both the OP's photos to be fully of high-enough quality to judge the shape of the wing-bar precisely. I would say it's the criterion that is the problem - not the photos.

The wing area, and esp. the "step" in the wing bar are blurred for me. This is perhaps due to movement. As I noted, I didn't think it was clearly Eurasian and if pushed I would have said short-toed but without certainty given the images.

 

[Butty]

blurred for me

Phone?!