What is the biggest vulture in the world? (1 Viewer)

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

Hello all,

Inspired by the " What is the biggest eagle in the world " thread, and much charmed by big huge birds of prey, I wonder which vulture actually is number one in size.
I've seen and enjoyed a couple of candidates for the title, even in my own tiny country, and the answer looks pretty obvious from what I've read in books. However, there's one candidate that gets little attention, perhaps because it's living in remote mountainous areas, and is not studied thoroughly.

Let's see if you know which one I mean. I'm looking forward to read all your suggestions!

Ronald

Dave B Smith · Nov 25, 2008

Of course the two Condors come to mind first. Took a quick google search to find another candidate!

wings · Nov 25, 2008

Andean Condor, no doubt.

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

condors are not vultures they are actually storks

the worlds largest vulture is the euro black vulture and then its the himalayan griffon

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

Hi Dave,

Yes, the Andean and California Condor are undoubtedly the biggest... IF they were true vultures. Genetically they are indistinguishable from storks, unlike Old World vultures.

I apologise for my ill-defined thread title; it's the Old World vultures I'm referring to, within this group it's the Eurasian Black Vulture that is supposed to be the biggest. But I'm not sure about that. Literature suggests there's another one that's as big or bigger.
It exceeds the Black Vulture's wing span, and it's not the Lammergeier...

I've seen Black Vulture as museum specimen and as a wild vagrant in the Netherlands ( at considerable distance ) and it is huge. Especially so when it's chasing off Carrion Crows from a carcass. Watching that I could suddenly believe they allegedly scare away wolves from carcasses. Very impressive!

As a biology student I accompanied my tutor to several zoos in the Netherlands and Belgium, with the purpose of attaining blood samples from birds of prey, for genetical research. Among many others a Black Vulture was caught with a net and stretched out on the ground, a blood sample was then drawn from the left or right wing vein, on the upper arm.
Four men were needed to hold the bird down and steady it. Its strength is truely formidable. In the laboratory the chromosomal pattern was subject of study, singling the Old World vultures out as a specific taxonomic group with only minor differences.
Quite different from Aquila eagles, and falcons.
But I degress.

Still, I would like to know if anyone can guess which particular vulture species I mean, just for the fun of it... Or should I give a clue?

Ronald

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

himalayan griffon

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Can the beautiful massive euro black vulture really drive off wolves? Any link or source for that? Very shocking information indeed!

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

scuba0095 said:
condors are not vultures they are actually storks

the worlds largest vulture is the euro black vulture and then its the himalayan griffon

That's the one.
The Himalayan Griffon ( Gyps himalayensis ) is the largest of all the Griffons.
A huge pale brown or khaki-coloured vulture. Weight 8,000 - 12,000 grams.
Span male 2,616 (1), female 3,063 (1).

This is from " Eagles, Hawks and Falcons of the World " by Leslie Brown & Dean Amadon ( 1968).

Note the wingspan of the single female specimen examined exceeds that of the largest Eurasian Black Vulture ( 2,535, 2,700 ). Weight of BV male :
7,000 -11,500 ( 20 ), female 7,500 - 12,500 (21 ).

So to me it seems the Himalayan Griffon wins.

Ronald

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

their weights cross over so it depends

BUt euro black vulture still holds the record weight between the 2

fugl · Nov 25, 2008

KorHaan said:
Hi Dave,
Yes, the Andean and California Condor are undoubtedly the biggest... IF they were true vultures. Genetically they are indistinguishable from storks, unlike Old World vultures.
Ronald

Actually, this may not be so. On the basis of recent research, the AOU (48th supplement, 2007) now classifies the new world vultures as Falconiformes again.

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

scuba0095 said:
himalayan griffon

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can the beautiful massive euro black vulture really drive off wolves? Any link or source for that? Very shocking information indeed!

Hi scuba0095,

Took me some time to look it up but found it.

From: Grzimeks Tierleben, Enzyklopädie des Tierreiches, VII. Band - Vögel I
( 1968 ). Professor Dr. Bernhard Grzimek is a worldrenowned German zoologist, and he writes on page 451:

(translated in my own words here)

" The Black Vulture appears on the Tibetan plains at an altitude of 4500 meters. There is the true kingdom of the Black Vulture, that elsewhere is nowhere numerous and is seen alone or in small groups of 3 to 5 birds only, on feeding grounds.
Here however, he drives off - as Ernst Schäfer informs - the Himalayan Griffons and Lammergeiers and even the Golden Eagle immediately with wingbeats and fierce blows of the beak. If they are with several, Black Vultures even hold wolves at a distance."

Regards, Ronald

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

fugl said:
Actually, this may not be so. On the basis of recent research, the AOU (48th supplement, 2007) now classifies the new world vultures as Falconiformes again.

Really?

When I compared the chromosome sets of New World vultures with those of storks, they were identical. Old World vultures, eagles, hawks and falcons have all different patterns, but stand out as a group from all other birds.
The chromosome set of a New World vulture consists of a few very large pairs of chromosomes, several smaller pairs and 40 to 50 pairs of tiny to minute pairs of chromosomes.
This size difference and large number is typical for most birds, but not so in Falconiformes. Old World vulture chromosome patterns seem to be from an ancient stem. The European Short-toed Eagle has the same pattern, strangely enough.
The Lammergeier is believed to have descended from the Old World vultures, as can be retrieved by some modifications in the chromosome set.

I would like to know on what evidence the AOU now classifies the New World vultures as Falconiformes. I admit it was a while back I studied genetics ( 1980 ) so I'm not keeping up with new developments.

Regards, Ronald

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

scuba0095 said:
their weights cross over so it depends

BUt euro black vulture still holds the record weight between the 2

Agreed, but it's the wingspan of over 10 feet of the Himalayan that's keeping me in the dark. With their wings the size of those of Black Vulture, surely one could notice a difference. I would love to see pictures of them both next to each other. I've found very little data on Himalayans; all I could find is that they are considerably bigger than Eurasian Griffon Vulture. Knowing the size of the latter, the Himalayan must be huge, no?

I saw them once on the telly, in a documentary about a so-called sky-burial in Tibet. They looked immense on the ground, a small flock had gathered and stood in close proximity of Tibetan monks, awaiting a meal...

Ronald

fugl · Nov 25, 2008

KorHaan said:
Really?

When I compared the chromosome sets of New World vultures with those of storks, they were identical. Old World vultures, eagles, hawks and falcons have all different patterns, but stand out as a group from all other birds.
The chromosome set of a New World vulture consists of a few very large pairs of chromosomes, several smaller pairs and 40 to 50 pairs of tiny to minute pairs of chromosomes.
This size difference and large number is typical for most birds, but not so in Falconiformes. Old World vulture chromosome patterns seem to be from an ancient stem. The European Short-toed Eagle has the same pattern, strangely enough.
The Lammergeier is believed to have descended from the Old World vultures, as can be retrieved by some modifications in the chromosome set.

I would like to know on what evidence the AOU now classifies the New World vultures as Falconiformes. I admit it was a while back I studied genetics ( 1980 ) so I'm not keeping up with new developments.

Regards, Ronald

I'm just passing on what I've read. I'm not a professional biologist and don't have a personal opinion on cathartid classification.

Anyway, here are the relevant excerpts from the 48th supplement (together with the most recent references) so you can judge for yourself. Avian taxonomy is obviously a fast moving field.

"p. 51. Reconsideration of the evidence for moving the family Cathartidae from the order Falconiformes to the order Ciconiiformes (AOU 1998), re-evaluation of the analysis of Griffiths (1994), and preliminary information from continuing genetic studies (e.g., Cracraft et al. 2004, Fain and Houde 2004, Ericson et al. 2006) indicate that the move was in error, although the true relationships and thus placement of the family are still not fully resolved.

Move the entries for the family Cathartidae and the included species (pp. 51-53) to a position in the Order FALCONIFORMES just before the Suborder ACCIPITRES (p. 86) under the heading Suborder CATHARTAE: American Vultures. Under the heading for the Family Cathartidae, insert the following:

Notes.—This family was moved to the order Ciconiiformes (AOU 1998) but is now tentatively returned to the order Falconiformes after re-evaluation of the reasons for the earlier change. Further, some genetic studies (Cracraft et al. 2004, Fain and Houde 2004, Ericson et al. 2006) have shown that the New World vultures are not closely related to the storks, although their precise phylogenetic relationship to the Falconiformes is yet undetermined."

Cracraft, J., F. K. Barker, M. Braun, J.Harshman, G. J. Dyke, J. Feinstein, S. Stanley, A. Cibois, P. Schikler, P. Beresford,and others. 2004. Phylogenetic relationshipsamong modern birds (Neornithes):Toward an avian tree of life. Pages 468–489 in Assembling the Tree of Life (J. Cracraft and M. J. Donoghue, Eds.). Oxford UniversityPress, United Kingdom.

Ericson, P. G. P., C. L. Anderson, T. Britton, A. Elzanowski, U. S. Johansson, M. Källerrsjö, J. I. Ohlson, T. J. Parsons, D.Zuccon, and G. Mayr. 2006. Diversifi cation of Neoaves: Integration of molecular sequence data and fossils. Biology Lett ers
2:543–547.

Fain, M. G., and P. Houde. 2004. Parallel radiations in the primary clades of birds. Evolution 58:2558–2573.

KorHaan · Nov 25, 2008

fugl said:
I'm just passing on what I've read. I'm not a professional biologist and don't have a personal opinion on cathartid classification.

Anyway, here are the relevant excerpts from the 48th supplement (together with the most recent references) so you can judge for yourself. Avian taxonomy is obviously a fast moving field.

"p. 51. Reconsideration of the evidence for moving the family Cathartidae from the order Falconiformes to the order Ciconiiformes (AOU 1998), re-evaluation of the analysis of Griffiths (1994), and preliminary information from continuing genetic studies (e.g., Cracraft et al. 2004, Fain and Houde 2004, Ericson et al. 2006) indicate that the move was in error, although the true relationships and thus placement of the family are still not fully resolved.

Move the entries for the family Cathartidae and the included species (pp. 51-53) to a position in the Order FALCONIFORMES just before the Suborder ACCIPITRES (p. 86) under the heading Suborder CATHARTAE: American Vultures. Under the heading for the Family Cathartidae, insert the following:

Notes.—This family was moved to the order Ciconiiformes (AOU 1998) but is now tentatively returned to the order Falconiformes after re-evaluation of the reasons for the earlier change. Further, some genetic studies (Cracraft et al. 2004, Fain and Houde 2004, Ericson et al. 2006) have shown that the New World vultures are not closely related to the storks, although their precise phylogenetic relationship to the Falconiformes is yet undetermined."

Cracraft, J., F. K. Barker, M. Braun, J.Harshman, G. J. Dyke, J. Feinstein, S. Stanley, A. Cibois, P. Schikler, P. Beresford,and others. 2004. Phylogenetic relationshipsamong modern birds (Neornithes):Toward an avian tree of life. Pages 468–489 in Assembling the Tree of Life (J. Cracraft and M. J. Donoghue, Eds.). Oxford UniversityPress, United Kingdom.

Ericson, P. G. P., C. L. Anderson, T. Britton, A. Elzanowski, U. S. Johansson, M. Källerrsjö, J. I. Ohlson, T. J. Parsons, D.Zuccon, and G. Mayr. 2006. Diversifi cation of Neoaves: Integration of molecular sequence data and fossils. Biology Lett ers
2:543–547.

Fain, M. G., and P. Houde. 2004. Parallel radiations in the primary clades of birds. Evolution 58:2558–2573.

Interesting!

Thanks for your effort, much appreciated!
As I said, it's a long time ago since I was into bird genetics and I hadn't realised new studies were available.
So, the number one DOES seem to come from overseas!

Still there's the intriguing Old lot...

Thanks again,

Best regards, Ronald

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

one on one is the euro black vulture sometimes able to keep a single wolf off a carcass? I wonder?

zoltannemeth · Nov 25, 2008

KorHaan said:
Agreed, but it's the wingspan of over 10 feet of the Himalayan that's keeping me in the dark. With their wings the size of those of Black Vulture, surely one could notice a difference. I would love to see pictures of them both next to each other. I've found very little data on Himalayans; all I could find is that they are considerably bigger than Eurasian Griffon Vulture. Knowing the size of the latter, the Himalayan must be huge, no?

I saw them once on the telly, in a documentary about a so-called sky-burial in Tibet. They looked immense on the ground, a small flock had gathered and stood in close proximity of Tibetan monks, awaiting a meal...

Ronald

Here are some photos of Himalayan Griffons together with Cinereous Vultures. On the third photo the Himalayan Griffon is the bird on the right. In the book Vultures of Africa by Mundy et al. he wrote that "Huge and magnificent, the Cinereous Vulture is the largest of its kind in Africa and the Western Palaearctic, but perhaps has to bow to the Himalayan Griffon for the honour of being the largest in the family"...
...it mostly depends on what source you read.

Birdingcraft · Nov 25, 2008

Cool topic! Euro Black Vulture is probably a relict of Eurasian megafauna.
As for Cathartidae phylogenies, more recent evidence shows support for being at distantly related to Storks. In any case, a pretty distinct group from other raptors.

fugl · Nov 25, 2008

Birdingcraft said:
Cool topic! Euro Black Vulture is probably a relict of Eurasian megafauna.
As for Cathartidae phylogenies, more recent evidence shows support for being at distantly related to Storks. In any case, a pretty distinct group from other raptors.

Interesting. I would guess then that by the same token the California Condor could probably be considered a relic of the North American megafauna? Unfortunately the condor hasn't managed the transition to modern times as well as the vulture has.

Re the carthatidae/stork relationship: do you have a reference for the recent work you mention?

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

someone post pix of griffon vultures next to golden eagles ?

I have seen both birds live on display at african lion safari in ontario

I was so shocked how big the euro black vulture was compared to the golden eagle

even its tallons looked much more massive the bird was a total beast looked twice the size of the eagles

the vultures and golden eagles were kept in cages side by side each other

scuba0095 · Nov 25, 2008

also what is the third larest? lapped faced or euro griffon?

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