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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Could use a little assistance please.... (1 Viewer)

B

birdeast

Well-known member
I was able to get a few shots of a juvenile white bellied sea eagle today. Unfortunately, the subject was back lit, so I have some chromatic abberation (sp?) to deal with and the other problems associated with this circumstance.

My biggest problem is the noise I appear to be getting from the LX3. Does a compact like the LX3 have a crop factor? If I try to zoom in an look at feather detail, I see a very noisy image. The photos I have attached were taken from 50m (below shots) to 75m away. Am I seeing what I should see from distances like these. I am using a 10mm Televue Radian eye piece and a 555mm WO Zenithstar ED II (APOGrade) telescope. I had an easier time using the scope today because a simple adapter setup I put together last weekend.

One other thing about astro scopes that is driving me crazy. Every time I want to shoot at a steep angle, it is almost impossible because the focuser basically 'falls' to limits of its focus range and cannot be adjusted. Do I need a different type of focuser?

Generally would appreciate any tips or critique anyone has to offer.

Scott
 

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Yes, the LX3 has a crop factor. From the lens specs: fl = 5.1 - 12.8mm (35mm Equivalent: 24 - 60mm) so the crop factor is 24/5.1= 4.7

The focuser should also have a thumb screw on the top or bottom that will tighten the drag.

Noise really only looks nasty when you pixel peep or crop heavily. If you display the pic at full screen rez or don't print larger than A3 the noise is usually resampled away.

have fun,
Rick
 
Thanks for the information.

Can you critique the images a little bit? What is your opinion of them in general? How can I improve them (within the constraints of the equipment I am using)?

Thanks again
 
Looks awesome given angle of the light and your perspective! Just need to crop out the vignette. Seriously, only way to improve is to shoot with the light coming from over your shoulder and perhaps change the perspective either by getting to eye level our wait for the bird to look down and to the side like in the second pic. If you shot RAW you might could adjust the sky to blue too.
 
Thanks RJM....

Tomorrow morning, I will be going back to same spot and shooting the eagles again with the sun behind me. Today was a difficult angle and the sun was totally in the wrong position. I will crop out the vignetting in the future. Noticed it today, but decided not to crop since these are more like test images.

Didn't really understand your description of crop factor. If I do a 100% crop on any of these images, they are terrible. Looks like 30% is the max I can go. Can you convert your previous reply into '%' for me?

I sent off for a cable release adapter for my LX3 and I need to modify part of my adapter ring assembly (adding set screws). Once this is done, I will probably be able to completely eliminate vignetting (with the TV 10mm eyepiece) and get rid of some camera shake issues I am having.

Had a chance to shoot a few smaller birds today, but I just couldn't find them and focus fast enough before they were gone. Gonna take some practice to get more efficient with this setup. Also thinking I will add a finder of some sort to help locate the bird faster.

Again... Thanks for your input.

Scott
 
birdeast said:
I was able to get a few shots of a juvenile white bellied sea eagle today. Unfortunately, the subject was back lit, so I have some chromatic abberation (sp?) to deal with and the other problems associated with this circumstance.

My biggest problem is the noise I appear to be getting from the LX3. Does a compact like the LX3 have a crop factor? If I try to zoom in an look at feather detail, I see a very noisy image. The photos I have attached were taken from 50m (below shots) to 75m away. Am I seeing what I should see from distances like these. I am using a 10mm Televue Radian eye piece and a 555mm WO Zenithstar ED II (APOGrade) telescope. I had an easier time using the scope today because a simple adapter setup I put together last weekend.

One other thing about astro scopes that is driving me crazy. Every time I want to shoot at a steep angle, it is almost impossible because the focuser basically 'falls' to limits of its focus range and cannot be adjusted. Do I need a different type of focuser?

Generally would appreciate any tips or critique anyone has to offer.

Scott
Click to expand...

Hi Scott,
A major question Rick doesn't ask is; Are you using Aperture Priority, and if so what ISO are you using; also what sort of shutter speeds are you achieving? Are you using the LX3 at maximum zoom? I think the chances are you are, because of the low (2.5) zoom factor. I had one of these cameras for a short time and returned it because I wasn't very impressed with the resolving power of the lens (this had been noted by reviewers).
I'm guessing you're using an astro scope because you're an astronomer? These kind of scopes clearly aren't designed for birdwatching and, in my opinion, are not ideal for digiscoping.
Max
 
Hi Max.

I am indeed using maximum telephoto (60mm). I am still figuring out the camera. Currently, I am using it manual mode have set the aperture at f2.8 (at max aperture). However, the shutter speed is something like 1/30.... I havent figured out if I can do anything to improve the shutter speed. Will keep reading. Feel free to give a fewer pointers if you want.

I am not an astronomer. A few years back I bought the Zenithstar because I wanted to use it on the night sky and I also liked the versatilty potential if offered in terms of terrestrial viewing and possibly imaging. I have a D300 and a 50D with some good glass, but I just felt like I wanted to explore other avenues at longer focal lengths. I think the I can do a bit better with the LX3 than I have done so far, but I am also concerned with what I am beginning to see as limitations. I am having fun right now though. Just another cool toy :t:

Forgot to mention.... The low shutter speed is in large part due to me shooting at ISO 80. I thought shooting at a back lit target like the eagle would get me a faster shutter speed. I also was not happy with the amount of grain I was seeing at ISO 400. Need to play around with ISO more. I am also considering noise reduction software, but have no idea what I should be looking for as I have never felt the need for this in past.
 
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birdeast said:
Hi Max.

I am indeed using maximum telephoto (60mm). I am still figuring out the camera. Currently, I am using it manual mode have set the aperture at f2.8 (at max aperture). However, the shutter speed is something like 1/30.... I havent figured out if I can do anything to improve the shutter speed. Will keep reading. Feel free to give a fewer pointers if you want.

I am not an astronomer. A few years back I bought the Zenithstar because I wanted to use it on the night sky and I also liked the versatilty potential if offered in terms of terrestrial viewing and possibly imaging. I have a D300 and a 50D with some good glass, but I just felt like I wanted to explore other avenues at longer focal lengths. I think the I can do a bit better with the LX3 than I have done so far, but I am also concerned with what I am beginning to see as limitations. I am having fun right now though. Just another cool toy :t:
Click to expand...

Hi Scott,
OK, what I would suggest you do, is set to A (aperture priority). In this way you can still choose the aperture you want, and control shutter speed by ISO. Lowest ISO possible is always best, but beware of too slow shutter speeds. You will learn by experience when you can get away with slow shutter speeds, and also when you need faster speeds. Shutter speed isn't always to do with movement of the subject, it's also related to distance of subject and weather conditions. If you are using high magnification on a distant bird, even if it's sitting still, you'll find you need a higher shutter speed because you have not only magified the image, you've also magified the impact of vibration. By weather I meant exposed windy conditions which again cause vibration in through the tripod legs (a good reason for suffering the pain and carrying a heavy tripod, rather than a light CF one!) Another thing, I would suggest you use spot metering.
Limitations there certainly are with digiscoping; it's like a lot of other things, a question of compomise. You say you've got some 'good glass' for you DSLR's, I don't know whether or not this comprises a 500mm prime, but if it does you'll appreciate these beasts are not the easiest of things to carry around and use in the field. I know from experience this is not an easy decision to make, but I only have to pick up my three hundred 2.8 prime to make me realise that I'll stick to digiscoping!
Keep experimenting; it WILL get better.
Max
 
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Thanks again Max. I will try aperture priority mode tomorrow. I have been using spot metering, but the camera seems to pick out many different things to focus on so the metering seems to be hit and miss also.

I have a Nikon 500mm f4. Today, when I was carrying around my tripod with the LX3 and the telescope.... I wasnt missing the 500mm monster.

I am currently looking around on the net for a red dot finder. Its amazing how many of these things are out there!

Im signing off for the night.... Thanks again for your assistance.

Scott
 
At that range you would surely get better quality by mounting the dslr to the scope prime focus style rather than the LX3 through an eyepiece. I can get images of better quality at over 300m with my dslr/astro scope than you are getting with the LX3 at 50m-75m. The eyepiece and point+shoot camera are introducing too many problems to the photos. Mounting the dslr to an astro scope with a top quality teleconverter keeps the images as pure as possible and a much better option than digiscoping if image quality/photography is your main goal.

Paul.
 
Paul Corfield said:
At that range you would surely get better quality by mounting the dslr to the scope prime focus style rather than the LX3 through an eyepiece. I can get images of better quality at over 300m with my dslr/astro scope than you are getting with the LX3 at 50m-75m. The eyepiece and point+shoot camera are introducing too many problems to the photos. Mounting the dslr to an astro scope with a top quality teleconverter keeps the images as pure as possible and a much better option than digiscoping if image quality/photography is your main goal.

Paul.
Click to expand...

Paul is surely right in what he says here, and it's at this point you have to decide what you're looking to achieve. It often turns out to be a far more difficult decision than it at first appears. It's so easy to be seduced by quality of image as the only goal. You have to decide whether or not you want to be primarily a digiscoper or a photographer. Digiscoping pure and simple, is holding a compact camera up to the eyepiece of your scope and taking a record shot. This purity of form has many advantages. You don't get involved in awkward, heavy, expensive adaptors, that usually restrict your use of the scope for it's original purpose. A simple light and small compact, that you can carry easily in your pocket, then becomes the only thing you need. Decisions, decisions!
Max
 
That's right. The reason I use an astro scope is that first and foremost I'm a photographer with an interest in optics, building/modifying telescopes or spotting scopes and getting the best image quality for the least outlay. I only have a passing interest in birdwatching as they are an easy target to test out my equipment. I don't mind how common the bird or wildlife is that I'm photographing as long as I have the equipment to get the best image. Just seeing the animal in the cameras viewfinder is good enough for me without the need to look at it through an eyepiece. That would put me at one end of the scale and at the other end you would have the twitcher who goes miles and miles just to tick a bird off a list with no need even for a record shot. Everyone else falls somewhere in between and you have to accept the limitations of one over the other.

Paul.
 
I guess what frightens me about using the scope as a telephoto lens is what I perceive as horrendous f values (f12-15 or something in that range). The scope I have is 555mm and f6.9 already. If I hook up my D300 to it with 2.0tc, I am out to 1110mm and f14 (+/-) compared to my 500mm f4 lens which would only be at f8. I guess it is actually a little bit worse when you consider the extension tubes required. If I want to reduce the f value a bit, I can use a field flattener, but again I am loosing focal length.

My goal is to get good quality shots thru the eyepiece so that I can get a decent fstop (at least this is what I think I understand) and a long focal length. The LX3 may not be capable of the quality that I am hoping for.... maybe the Panasonic G1 is??? I realize afocal photography is fraught with pitfalls, but it does seem like people are getting better and better at 'squeezing' more quality out of these setups.

Thanks for your input Paul. At some point, I will probably use my dslr with this scope, but right now I am kinda determined to see what I can get out of the LX3.

Scott
 
I think you will be surprised at the shutter speeds you can get at these high f values. Plus with a dslr there is no worry about noise even at ISO800. On a sunny day you should still be getting well over 1/500 or thereabouts. I tend to stick with a 1.4X teleconverter so speeds are up around 1/1000 or more.

Paul.
 
Hi,
I'm an astronomer first and can promise you that a focusser that won't look up is not going to be much good to us!!
If your WO has the two speed focusser the lock screw is not going to do much good. We hardly bother with them. If your scope is like my ZS66 there is another friction device, a barrel type finger-nut with a little allen key recessed in it. This is in front of or behind the lock screw. Loosen the finger nut, add a bit of tension via the allen key and retighten the finger nut. The other thing that helps is to add more friction via the little allen key controlled friction pad adjusters on the other side of the draw tube. I think there will be two of them.
My 66 holds still looking straight up (for hours) with a whacking great Peltier-cooled astro CCD camera and colour filterwheel hanging on the back. But only after I tweaked it as described.
Cheers,
Olly, Les Granges Astronomy Holidays.
 
Thanks Olly.... I was able to make the adjustments you mentioned a couple days ago. Feel kind of embarrassed that I took so long to figure out what needed to be done. Having said that... I must say that such a simple instrument can be challenge to someone who has never touch one before. Would have been nice to have some type of 'focuser adjustment for idiots' guide come along with the scope.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Scott
 
Would have been nice to have some type of 'focuser adjustment for idiots' guide come along with the scope.

Couldn't agree more. Instructions are becoming a thing of the past. Everything is supposed to be 'intuitive' - an unwelcome import from the computer world, perhaps.
Olly
 
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