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Digiscoping vs Digital SLR (1 Viewer)

I've noticed a few posts and a few fellow birder's saying they're going to buy a digital SLR and give up digiscoping.

How do you replicate the magnification levels acheivable by coupling a scope and camera?
 
You need to have a decently long telephoto lens (I'd say 500mm. or more), and you need to use high-quality teleconverters. This means your telephoto lens must be fast, as well. The truth is that it's a big investment.

The truth is, it's easier to get good results using DSLR equipment. You aren't dealing with a fussy LCD viewfinder, the file sizes are larger, and very importantly, you can use far higher ISO settings without undue "noise" problems in the images. But in order to achieve those high magnification levels, you have to have a real battery of optics, and this is an expensive proposition.

What seems to happen to many frustrated digiscopers, in fact, is that they purchase lenses that are no longer than 400mm., perhaps with a 1.4x teleconverter. Essentially, they give up the longer magnification of the digiscoping rig for the convenience of the DSLR setup.
 
glasgowbirder said:
I've noticed a few posts and a few fellow birder's saying they're going to buy a digital SLR and give up digiscoping.

How do you replicate the magnification levels acheivable by coupling a scope and camera?
The simple answer is that you can't. I tend to look at digiscoping as a handy means for a genuine birder who would be out and about with a scope+tripod anyway to get reasonable shots of birds from great distances, where-as using a dslr+long lens tends to be something for those with more photographic ambitions and this often means sacrificing out & out birding success for the sake of some excellent photos...this isn't always the case, especially with modern image stabilised lenses (but you're still going to struggle with dslr+lens+scope+tripod).

Digiscoping has introduced a huge number of people to bird photography, and many have decided to go one step further (notably with dslr's under £1000) to achieve images that digiscoping struggles with....in-flight shots, active birds, as well as better reproduction for large prints/publication. The speed in which you can find a bird in the viewfinder and get off some shots is considerably faster than with a digiscoping set-up, the luxury of AF cannot be under estimated.

To some extent the magnification from digiscoping can be almost approached with a dslr+ very long lens + teleconverter, and then some in-computer cropping. The image from a dslr is of a far higher quality than that from any smaller digicam (forget about pixel counts), this allows far more cropping to enlarge the subject than that from, say a coolpix 4500. Still, it's always better to have a bird large in the frame from the outset, rather than cropping later...as focus is easier and exposure can be judged better (and you get every pixel remaining for a nice big print).
 
As a fairly keen photographer I've managed to dip my feet in both pools. I have a digiscoping setup ( Swarovski scope / Coolpix 4500 / Sworvski DCA ) and a digital SLR ( Canon EOS 300D / Sigma 80-400 OS / 1.4X converter ).

I have used these quite a lot and there are pros and cons with both as Andy said. As most birders have a scope, the additiion of an adaptor and coolpix is nowhere near as much as the cost of an SLR setup.

The digiscoping, although tricky and sometimes very frustrating, is generally a lot less technical than an SLR setup. Of course this could just be me tinkering more with the controls. This doesn't mean that the results aren't as good ( just check out the gallery ). Carrying the camera and adaptor around with the scope etc doesn't make much of a difference.

The actual image quality from my Canon is generally much better, but to get a long telephoto lens of high quality would cost a fortune. When fairly close to the subject I find the SLR setup far superior. These image stabilising lenses also help. Just as well as the Sigma lens is no light weight. You should try lugging the SLR setup around for a day. Of course being a perfectionist, I end up carrying both sets along with my binoculars etc.

The only thing i haven't tried ( and I'd be interested to hear any comments ) is the Swarovski TLS800 adaptor so i can connect the scope to the 300D. I believe it uses a T2 adaptor so you lose the autofocus. However since i tend to spend most of my time refocusing the scope anyway this is no big loss.

I do have some photos ( not many ) in the gallery using both setups.

So if you see someone strolling around Leighton Moss or Marton Mere with loads of gear and probably missing most things as I'm too engrossed in what I'm doing, say Hi. I'll welcome the break.
 
At the moment I am dabbling in both,but as I mentioned on another thread a week ago,I still say there is no comparison from a basic SLR image with a good digiscoped one.As Andy says,to achieve the same magnification one has to have a large expensive lens for the slr.Whereas with a good digiscoping set up,and someone who is good with their camera settings(which excludes yours truly!!)one can manage a good image from quite a distance away.Having said that,the images from a SLR with a decent lens do seem to be of much higher quality as such.But if one wants a picture of a bird from a distance,the SLR is not going to pick up the size of the bird as a digiscoping set up does,unless of course you have a lens costing a couple of grand,more in some cases.
I find the SLR set up is good if you are reasonably near to the image,and do not wantto bother setting up a scope etc,as by the time you have done that the bird can have flown off and it has all been a waste of time.I find the 100-400mm lens can be handheld and a good image can be taken,so really I think one makes ones choice.
I have set up my SLR kit,so it rests in my trike basket on two bean bags,so it is not getting bumped around,but if I am passing a bird perched in a tree say,I can reach in take out the camera and hopefully take a shot.If I had to set up tripod etc,it would take longer,and there is the chance the bird will move off But when I am in the bird hide or in a location where the birds are resident,I know that taking the distance into consideration I stand more chance of a better picture by using the digiscoping set up.
 
I'm playing with both at the moment. Camera shake seems to be a big bugbear and now I'm after a Canon remote control. So far have got better results with Canon EOS 10D + Sigma 500mm lens than with my Nikon 4500 digiscope setup but time will tell, especially as everyone has told me my scope, a Nikon RA11, was not the best telescope for digiscoping even if Nikon supply all the parts to connect one to the other.
 
glasgowbirder said:
I've noticed a few posts and a few fellow birder's saying they're going to buy a digital SLR and give up digiscoping.

How do you replicate the magnification levels acheivable by coupling a scope and camera?

Lots of good info has already been posted, and I'll throw my 2 cents in and agree with Andy that for the most part, you simply don't achieve the same magnfication levels.
(There are ways to do it though. Here is a link for some Canon lenses:
http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/reflex8002000/2000mm.htm)
But even if you manage to get an equivalent focal length, you'd probably introduce issues that would begin to negate the DSLR's inherent advantage given to it by its larger sensor.

Probably the best way to do it would be with a high quality 800mm lens. The Sigma 800mm f5.6 will cost about $6000 U.S. and the 2X convert you would want would add another paltry $200. This gives you a 1600mm f11 lens which on a Canon digital camera gives you 2560mm equivalence. A better choice might be the 1.4 teleconverter which would yield a 1120mm lens at around f8 and a 1792mm equivalence. This would be at the lower end of digiscoping ranges, but I often digiscope in that range.

So it can be done. And doing it the "right" way will cost a bunch of money. but there are alternatives that will sacrifice some quality, but that may still work. You could get an inexpensive M42 mount Rubinar 1000mm f10 catadioptric for about $300. You could add a $40 2X extender and get really long at 2000mm and f22, or 3520mm equivalence. It would be better if you could hunt down a 1.4x M42 converter though. This would give you a 2240mm equivalence at around f16.

But one of the problems with a SLR and a long lens is mirror slap. These cameras simply introduce vibrations that are essentially non-existent in the little digicams that digiscopers use. You'll probably have to increase shutter speed to significantly to compensate. Digiscopers regularly get away with quite low shutter speeds that I suspect won't be useable with the DSLR. This may not be a huge burden with the expensive 800mm f5.6 lens and 1.4 converter that yields 1792mm at f8. But it gets to be a pretty big issue pretty quickly at the higher magnifications. The solution, of course is crank up the camera's ISO. But if you go up to ISO 800, the image quality becomes roughly comparable to the image quality from a digicam at ISO 100. So what have you gained for your trouble?

A digiscoping rig will typically yield much lower f-numbers at magnification ranges such as those mentioned above - between f4.5 and f6. And since the digiscoping rig has significantly lower vibration issues, it can often get away with lots lower shutter speeds. It is only in very dim light that most digiscopers find themselves bumping up the ISO.

BTW, Nikon has some vibration reduction lenses, but they don't have quite the reach of the lenses I mentioned. Another approach might be the Olympus E1. It has a smaller CCD than the other DSLRs so you can get by with a shorter focal length and consequently you get more aperture. I'd also guess its mirror is smaller and might introduce less vibration.

Then, of course, there is the whole question of image quality. I presume that a top end Canon lens and converter would yield superior image quality to a digiscoping rig. But with the 2x converter, even these lenses will be flirting with the theoretical limits of diffraction. And the lesser rigs with smaller apertures and larger f-numbers will definitley be in trouble. I'd be very surprised if these did not yield optically softer images. I've done testing with my digiscoping rigs and they can capture detail very near the limit of the sensor. Where they fall down is in image detail contrast.

So, the upshot is the more you push the DSLRs, the more likely you are to lose their quality advantage - unless you spend a LOT of money.
 
Whilst there is an overlap between DSLR and digiscoping distances to my mind DSLR's win out on the closer taken photos. The sheer quality of 6 MP output and the quality of purposely designed photographic optics will always win out over a camera coupled to a spotting scope.

Digiscoping wins on photos of more distantly taken subjects. Personally I prefer to take photos from 30 yards+ where quite often you are on the edge of what UK birds perceive as a threat. Many photos are 60 yards+ which I think DSLRs no matter what the lens would really struggle with.

IMO DSLRs are an upgrade to people using the likes of the 8-10x optical zoom cameras where you still need to get in close to get a bird photo. As Andy rightly says Digiscoping is more akin to birdwatchers taking snaps of the birds they see. DSLRs are really a proper photographers domain. I'd still like a DSLR outfit but it would be to use in conjunction with digiscoping rather than as a replacement.
 
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IanF said:
Whilst there is an overlap between DSLR and digiscoping distances to my mind DSLR's win out on the closer taken photos. The sheer quality of 6 MP output and the quality of purposely designed photographic optics will always win out over a camera coupled to a spotting scope.

Sure - assuming equivalent angular fields of view. But if they are not equivalent, then it isn't so clear cut. For instance, I'd expect a DSLR with a 500mm 3rd party lens (800mm equivalent) would not "win" compared to a CP5000 or similar 5MP digicam coupled to top end scope with a similar quality eyepiece and digiscopign at a 1600mm equivalent focal length.

Good digiscoping rigs maintain pretty good sharpness at low to moderate magnifications and 5MP cameras produce images that are only marginally lower in quality when compared to the images from a 6MP DSLR.

Of course if you can get in range with the DSLR to get the framing that you want, then its clearly the better option.
 
This is a wonderful discussion subject and one I grapple with every Monday as I load up my 4 wheel drive with the gear for the week. I tend to take everything in the car so that I can adapt as I go. The biggest issues I face every day are the available light levels and the comfortable distance v size of the bird. When photographing under tree cover (50% of the time for me) I appreciate the f2.8/f3.5 light gathering of the CP4500/Swarovski AT80HD at iso 100 and with no Shutter slap to worry about I can photograph down to 1/8th of a second. If you're photographing with a 500mm or smaller lens you are normally going to disturb the bird (unless they are very used to people around) even though you might get a shot. With my D100 I get a lot of photos of birds moving away from me that I can't use. But for flight shots and birds moving through the canopy you can't get the photo any other way. If you want photos of birds coming towards you (or at least not going away) and you don't have the luxury of a hide, digiscoping is still the way to go. But it is more difficult to get the photo and you have to take a lot as it is difficult to see how you are going until you check the results later. Also, you are not going to fill the frame with photos of finches,wrens,pardalotes,silvereyes unless you have a 1000mm lens that focuses to about 8 feet and that you can hand hold as they would be very skittish at that distance.
I'm back to using my Digiscoping setup more again and am looking up upgrade my CP4500 for more pixels and faster shutter speed.
 
And Happy birthday to Jay, presumably a dslr wasn't on your birthday present request list ;)
In terms of 'quality of image', depending on what you intend doing with your final image (web, 6x4-8x6, even 10x8), then a cracking digiscoped shot will not really look any different from that from even the best dslr (or even 35mm).
As far as web images go, everyones equal no matter what they use.
 
Andy Bright said:
And Happy birthday to Jay, presumably a dslr wasn't on your birthday present request list ;)
In terms of 'quality of image', depending on what you intend doing with your final image (web, 6x4-8x6, even 10x8), then a cracking digiscoped shot will not really look any different from that from even the best dslr (or even 35mm).
As far as web images go, everyones equal no matter what they use.

Thanks. And no, a DSLR wasn't on my list. I've been seriously thinking about getting one but came to the conclusion that the improvement in quality over the CP5000 didn't warrant the expense. What I really want is the mythical CP8000 (a CP5000 with an 8MP sensor).

The DSLR would be great for taking table tennis pictures though. Which brings me back to the birthday. I got an air conditioning unit installed in the garage so I can practice and play table tennis through the hot summers here. Just in time too. :)

The U.S. isn't exactly a hotbed of for table tennis, but some of us do play competitively. Those you who play in between birding might find this interesting.

http://www.jayandwanda.com/tt/speed.html
 
Jay,
I've never mentioned it before but I have played a bit of table tennis in my time and we have a table in our garage. I'll get practising and challenge you next time I'm in Scottsdale.
Neil
 
For what it is worth,here are two shots of the same bird,(Tufted duck, I think as he has a black tip to his beak but not 100% sure)taken from the same distance .I was in the bird hide.The Canon shot -the smaller one,is taken with a 300D using a 100-400IS with a 1x4 extender,and yes,it was on the tripod.I may add here,that although the 3 first pins are sellotaped,it will not auto focus,so had to use MF but focussed via the lens.No special settings were used on the Canon,just focus and press.
This is why I say that for distant shots,if,you get a decent one they are better than SLR ie for the smaller lens and price comparison with a Coolpix4500.Obviously if one has the much larger lenses then it would be a different story.
In case you are not sure which is which,19 is the sLR and 53(I think) with an e on the end is the digiscope image.
 

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Neil said:
Jay,
I've never mentioned it before but I have played a bit of table tennis in my time and we have a table in our garage. I'll get practising and challenge you next time I'm in Scottsdale.
Neil

Deal. But by that time I'll have to switch the unit to heat.

BTW, you do know that they've switched to 40mm balls?
 
Hi glasgowbirder,

Im a person that enjoys a challenge. In particular, trying to capture various action shots whilst digi-scoping. Although ive managed one or two, ive reached a partial conclusion, that DSLR seems to be the way to go. Having said that, the posts above are enabling me to re-consider my desire to move over to DSLR photography (for the fore-seeable future, anyway). It seems we're talking 'silly' money to get some of the equipment necessary to hit the sort of distances a good digi-scoped setup can reach.
But, my frustration still exists regarding action shots. Theyre the ones id love to be concentrating on more. Very tricky with a scope and cam, so i therefore, still feel the DSLR'S will take some beating.

tracker
 
Adding digiscoping setup to DSLR gear

I find myself in a somewhat different position from the other posters on this thread. I am very heavily invested in DSLR equipment, but find myself wanting to capture bird images beyond the range of my present equipment. A few months ago I purchased the Canon 1Ds Mk II, which is by far the best camera I have ever owned. Coupled with the 500mm f4.0 IS lens, and 1.4 and sometimes 2.0 extenders it delivers superb images. I am attaching a picture of a young Gyrfalcon taken in NW Greenland this past summer with the Mk II + 500mm from about 50 feet. The detail in the original is truly breathtaking, but from several hundred feet however it would have little impact.
Next march I will spend a week staying at the Canopy Tower in Panama, where one can see numerious birds at canopy level. I will take my DSLR gear, but many of the birds will be too far for even the 500mm + 2X extender.
I want to add a digiscoping outfit to my kit for those situations where I simply cannot get close enough. I am thinking of the Zeiss 85FL scope + Zeiss digiscoping mount and one of the new 8 MP cameras, such as the Canon Powershot 80s.
 

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I want to add a digiscoping outfit to my kit for those situations where I simply cannot get close enough. I am thinking of the Zeiss 85FL scope + Zeiss digiscoping mount and one of the new 8 MP cameras, such as the Canon Powershot 80s.[/QUOTE]

I normally carry Nikon D100 plus 80-400mm ED VR or the 300/f4 with my digiscoping gear . It is possible to use your Canon lens as a telescope with the right eyepiece and then put an appropriate digicam on it. This would save you having to carry an extra piece of kit and you wouldn't have to keep taking the 500mm lens off the tripod which would be hard to do quickly. I've done this with the Nikon 300/f4 ED. You would need a low magnification, high Eye Relief eyepiece . The Olympus 7070wz (7.1mgs,RAW,IR Remote) is a good digicam and there are many others but the Powershot's lens may not be that suitable (vignetting could be a problem).
I hope this starts some good discussion as I'm thinking of doing this myself when I upgrade to a 400/500mm lens. Neil.
 
Defenitely for regular bird photography, I would use SLR. It's more easy to swing a camera with a decent sized lens than a Camera on a spotting scope on a tripod. For long distance Digiscoping will perform better, but you have to be skilled to get clear pictures. For shorter distances, DSLR photography will do amazingly better and is easy for most people to get very clear pictures.
 
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