A newbie in need of some help! Cheers (1 Viewer)

jeffo50 · Apr 29, 2012

Hello,
I'm new here and this is my first post.
I'm new to using my newly aquired skywatcher ed80 ds pro for bird shooting.
I've been out shooting small birds with it and even after cropping the image, the bird in the shot still looks smallish? I've looked at Fernando Batista's bird shots, and the birds fill the photo much more. Am I missing something?
Do I need a longer extension tube or teleconverter?

I set my in-cameras manual lens setting to 600mm and nearest at f8.
I shoot at shutter speed priority at over 1/6000th (no mirror lock up) and in Continuous mode via remote shutter.

I've tried mirror lock up, Q mode (quiet mode) too.

after 200 shots on a typical shoot, alot of them are blurred, many because of in continuous mode, although some blurred shots looked in focus via the view finder at the time? Only about 30 shots where very sharp and in focus.
So, am I doing something incorrect or missing something?

Here is my equipment list:

Nikon D3s (full frame size sensor)
Large Manfrotto tripod with heavy sturdy video head.
Skywatcher Ed 80 ds
Max dslr Nikon 2" adapter
2" 50cm extension tube
Remote shutter release unit

Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance.

Jeff

Musoman · Apr 29, 2012

There's nothing wrong with your equipment ( so to speak )

The D3s is a magical camera, but remember its not cropped like an APS-C camera. You will, therefore, have much more of the scene in your shots than a crop camera, so the birds will appear smaller, but actually they're not. You simply have more of the scene to crop away in post process.

So get nearer, or use a TC. Nearer is better if you can

As for blurred shots, i would try taking it off continuous focus, and try one shot focus, spot metering and centre spot focusing.

If you're shooting with a S/S of 1/6000th, overkill unless you're trying to freeze Hummingbird wings, then blurry shouldnt really happen, so somewhere along the line, you must be mis-focusing.

If you're shooting static birds, you wont need such monstrous shutter speeds, and you could use live view to check that your manual focusing is ok. Doesnt the D3s have micro adjustment ? You could do a check and find out if the SW 80ED is front or back focusing, and use micro adjust to set the camera for that particular lens

jeffo50 · Apr 30, 2012

Hello Musoman,
Maybe my continuous shooting mode caused some vibrations of some sort down the line.
I will take your advice and try spot metering or centre spot focusing, on my next shooting, which is tomorrow.

I agree 1/6000th is overkill. hahaha. I will bring it down quite a bit. hehehe
I've checked the nikons menu, and i don't see anything related to the micro adjustment that you mentioned?

But all i saw was the option for when using manual prime lens "non CPU lens data" in which I entered 600mm and F number at f8 (the next lowest option is f7.1)
I'm not sure if entering this data into the dslr, will be of any benefit to my Skywatcher ed80?

I've been thinking for a while now with regards to purchasing Kenko Pro 300 1.4 TC and maybe extending the length of my 50cm extension tube.

Cheers matey.

Paul Corfield · Apr 30, 2012

Continuous shooting via a remote will certainly cause some vibration, it sets up a rocking type of motion when the mirror flips up and down. I use continuous shooting a lot but only if I'm holding the camera while panning the scope around on the tripod. If I use a remote then I'll use mirror lock up or something else that uses single shots. I think at the shutter speeds you are using then you should be able to hold the camera and get sharp images. I can generally get every photo sharp and in focus at anything above around 1/50, especially with the scope at 600mm. For small birds like say Blue Tit sized you would need to be around 20m max and then expect to crop off at least 50% of the photo. I think at 600mm then 10-15m is about right for small birds. With a 1.4X TC then up to 30m is doable. When you get up to Pigeon sized birds then it goes up to like maybe 70m with a 1.4X TC. Get a camo net to carry around and make a simple hide and birds will come closer. Push peanuts into cracks in the bark etc. There's loads of tricks people use for getting birds to come close.

A longer ext tube wont do anything apart from allow you to focus on closer subjects. A 1.4X TC is a handy size to have.

Paul.

Musoman · Apr 30, 2012

Cont. Shoot mode shouldnt cause your problem. Its more likely that because you have to manually focus the SW 80, you're not nailing the focus.

Like i said, focus manually, then switch to live view and zoom in, and see if your focusing is accurate. Use a very static subject - a tree will do, or fence post, or something that doesnt move.

You are right with the Non CPU lens data. 600mm and f8 is about as close as you can get, i think ?

You will then get 600mm f8 in the Exif data

As for your extension tube, if its not long enough, you will know when you focus on something. But i'm sure 50mm is in the right region.

This is something else you can check out with live view and zoomed in to max. It will be obvious if somethings wrong

jeffo50 · Apr 30, 2012

Thanks for the help, from both of you.

I went out today, and loosened my video head levers a tad, and had one hand focusing, and the other for pressing the shutter. (no use of remote trigger)

Had it high shutter speed and in continuous mode, but fired off single shots as well.
Having it on Spot Meter seems to have helped a lot.
And I only just noticed that my "in focus" green circle works when I turn the scopes focuser. Yay!

I had much more keepers this time.

I've got a kenko pro 300 dgx 1.4 on order and looking forward to doing more shooting soon.

Here's a link to my shoot with your advices taken on board.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1030&thread=41377769

Cheers

Paul Corfield · May 1, 2012

Musoman said:
Cont. Shoot mode shouldnt cause your problem.

Using continuous shooting via a remote will make the scope rock back and forth every time the mirror flips up. Even on a very solid tripod there will be loads of vibration. My old tripod was worn out and there was a lot of play on the mount. I found this dampened out some of the mirror slap. Now with my new tripod everything is very rigid and vibration seems to be magnified.

Looking at your photos Jeff it looks like you are getting the hang of it. Having the 'in focus' light is a bonus.

Paul.

Musoman · May 1, 2012

From my own experience, its the opposite as the initial press of the shutter button is what rocks the equipment the most. In a burst, i've found the first photo to be not quite as good as the subsequent photos. Of course, if you havent nailed the focus first off, no amount of continuous shooting will help, which is why i suggested Jeff check his manual foucsing first, on a very static subject - wall , tree, post. Then without changing the focus, check the subject through live view zoomed in.

Paul Corfield · May 1, 2012

We are talking about continuous shooting using a remote while not touching the camera.

Paul.

Musoman · May 1, 2012

I know, I use a remote as well. Its my own experience, which is why i posted it. If your experience is different then we have to agree to disagree

Paul Corfield · May 1, 2012

Well I guess you are very luck but probably in a small minority. What tripod head are you using?

Generally, nature photographers that do a lot of long lens work will say that hand holding the camera against your face will offer the best dampening. It's the method I use 90% of the time unless I'm trying out something like a 3x or 4x TC and then I use mirror lock up.

Paul.

Musoman · May 1, 2012

I still have the camera to my face :t:

I'll use all the damping i can get - bean bag over the lens barrel too.

My P&T head is a Manfrotto 808RC4 - nice and sturdy, but weighty and has quite a large QR plate, which i really like

http://www.jacobsdigital.co.uk/p-38107-jacobs-digital-manfrotto-808rc4-standard-3-way-head.aspx

Tripod is a Giottos MTL 9361B with the original head removed, so i could mount the 808

http://www.jessops.com/online.store/products/76229/show.html

I'm way too wobbly hand holding big lenses. I never hand held my SW80 or another big lens i've owned. Current Nikkor 400mm f3.5 that i use at the moment is another
that i always use on a tripod

jeffo50 · May 2, 2012

I've found that handholding the camera and depressing the shutter in single or double shots works fine. I found that depressing my D3S's handgrip shutter button was more softer than the main one.
Also, holding the camera plus the remote trigger seems to work fine too.

I found that there is a little movement/play, when my 2" Max dslr adapter has been installed correctly?? This could well be enough to cause vibration and affect my images.

Is there a remedy for this? a thin/flat gasket ring or something?

Thanks.

alphan · May 3, 2012

The mirror slap vibration will be determined by many factors. Shutter speed, position of the mirror from tripod head (pivotal point), weight of camera, weight of scope (lens), length of scope etc.

Jeff, every fitting will give a slight slackness but that shouldn't affect too much. One way of reducing vibration is to lock your equipment in position and have your camera strap slightly tensioned against a tripod leg.

Full frame camera are not so popular for birding. Your SW 80Ed will only give you 600mm whereas a crop sensor camera will give you 900mm. Oly (like the OM-D) (Four Third) will give you 1200mm, and Nikon J1/V1 will give you a monstrous 1620mm.

You are doing very well with your shooting. You just need more practice to perfect the game.

Paul Corfield · May 3, 2012

alphan said:
Full frame camera are not so popular for birding. Your SW 80Ed will only give you 600mm whereas a crop sensor camera will give you 900mm. Oly (like the OM-D) (Four Third) will give you 1200mm, and Nikon J1/V1 will give you a monstrous 1620mm.

This is false alphan, sensor size is not important. Actually a 100% crop from a full size sensor can produce a much larger and more detailed image than the same size crop from a smaller sensor. Also you need to consider pixel pitch, the is the real key to how the images will compare. If you had a 1.3X crop sensor and a full frame sensor and both sensors have the same pixel pitch then the 100% crop from both photos will be the exact same size.

Crop factor only applies to field of view, it has nothing to do with reach.

The only thing that affects reach is optical focal length.

Paul.

alphan · May 4, 2012

Paul Corfield said:
This is false alphan, sensor size is not important. Actually a 100% crop from a full size sensor can produce a much larger and more detailed image than the same size crop from a smaller sensor. Also you need to consider pixel pitch, the is the real key to how the images will compare. If you had a 1.3X crop sensor and a full frame sensor and both sensors have the same pixel pitch then the 100% crop from both photos will be the exact same size.

Crop factor only applies to field of view, it has nothing to do with reach.

The only thing that affects reach is optical focal length.

Paul.

Thanks Paul for the correction. I understand the D3/D4 have superior sensor. But when you compare a 1.5 X crop camera rated at 16Mp and a 2X crop camera also rated at 16Mp. Which would produce better results when used with the same lens, assuming both sensors are of similar league. Both need cropping to fill frame and taken from same distant.

Cheers.

Paul Corfield · May 4, 2012

alphan said:
Thanks Paul for the correction. I understand the D3/D4 have superior sensor. But when you compare a 1.5 X crop camera rated at 16Mp and a 2X crop camera also rated at 16Mp. Which would produce better results when used with the same lens, assuming both sensors are of similar league. Both need cropping to fill frame and taken from same distant.

Cheers.

I think 1.5x still performs better. Cramming the same amount of pixels into a smaller sensor presents its own set of problems, more noise being the main one and this is still true even on the new olympus OM-D.

Paul.

Mark9473 · May 4, 2012

Have you actually seen images from the OM-D, Paul? I think you can do a whole lot worse than pick that camera.

Paul Corfield · May 4, 2012

Out of the current mirrorless I think I'd look at the Fuji X Pro1 first, the noise performance from that camera is amazing compared to all the others. Even at ISO 6400 it looks brilliant. I think there's a reason why a lot of people don't like the new Olympus and a lot seem to be sending them back. Even so it may be ok for use on the scope. Some pictures from both these cameras on Borg telescopes can be found in this blog.

http://digiborg.wordpress.com/

Paul.

cango · May 5, 2012

Do you have a source(s) for "why a lot of people don't like the new Olympus" because I don't seem to come across that info. First, It's not available everywhere (for "a lot to be sending them back") second - has it to do with performance of the camera itself or the expectations of the photographer?

Just curious.

A newbie in need of some help! Cheers (1 Viewer)

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