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Underappreciated Old Porros (1 Viewer)

elkcub

Silicon Valley, California
United States
I recently compared a well-aligned Nikon 8x30 A (Nippon Kogaku, Mikron, c. 1950s) that I picked up on eBay, with my standard Swarovski SLC 8x30 Mk II and SLC 8x20 binocs (c. 1995). I was astounded how magnificent those old Nikons are!! Birds are crystal clear. FOV, depth, and color rendition are very satisfying. Frankly, given good weather, I really enjoy them more than the expensive Swaros. I don't see much written about field comparisions with older porros. Think it's a well kept secret that they might be just as good — and a lot less expensive?
 
elkcub,

What you are experiencing is a well known phenomenon. Porro prism binoculars are undoubtably superior in almost every way to modern roof prism binoculars, with one single exception.... it is nearly impossible to make porro models completely waterproof, fogproof, and shockproof. The roof prism designs are simpler, more compact, and lighter weight... easier to seal environmentally - but almost always at the expense of image quality.

This is not really a "well kept secret", but rather a situation where modern optical design is geared toward a certain marketing goal (weatherproof, rugged construction) at the expense of other factors (overall image quality).

Best wishes,
Bawko
 
i chuckled when i started to read this thread, i have just returned from a bit of a birding weekend nothing spectacular but on Friday whilst i admit the weather was poor and my bins although not high quality they have been alright in the past but seemed to be struggling from middle to far distance couldn't tell the difference between a duck and a goose let alone identify anything. grasping the nettle, on saturday i resolved to test drive some of the more exotic bins to see what i had been missing. tested all types of bins from nikon,leica swaro's down to some costing about the £400.00 mark nothing i tested was worth spending £400-£800 to improve what i already had, sure there was a some improvement but not at that price. this is where the porros come in tested at the same time, a second hand pair of nikon 8 x 30 wide angle porro bins what a revelation brilliant not even the leica/swaro came anywhere close to the clarity and brilliance of these nikon porros. they are small, light and a dream to use, sure from the following comment i will have to look after them but i don't go out in the rain without an outdoor coat they can be tucked inside the coat if necessary. i don't tend to thow any of my equipment around it could get bumped or knocked by accident but that can happen with any equipment, that's life. for the forseeable future i do not see myself chasing the elusive dream of leica or swaros. when they compare to my new nikons at the price i paid then i might just put my hand in my pocket again. for the those with an old pair of porros dust them off and compare them to the latest aquisition i think you may be surprised

cheers geoff
 
The 'old' Nikon 8 x 30 porros are great bins indeed. My mate's girlfriend used them for ages. Very light and small too.

construction is an issue though and i'm sure in a rainforest they might fail you after a while but who knows?

I still favour my old 7 x 42 dialyts - for brightness, even though i don't use them much these days.
 
On fair days, I like a fifty year old Leitz 8x30 Binuxit. As Bawko wrote, the Porros are subject to shocks, therefore you should inspect them for collimation, every few years or when you get eye strain, or the view has deteriorated, even a little. Yes, I have modern roof glasses, but even the 8x32 Leica BN, lacks the wide field of my old Binuxit.
Close focussing is another advantage of roof prism glasses.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe:
 
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Atomic Chicken said:
Porro prism binoculars are undoubtably superior in almost every way to modern roof prism binoculars, with one single exception.... it is nearly impossible to make porro models completely waterproof, fogproof, and shockproof.

It is indeed almost impossible to make water- and fogproof porros with center focussing, simply because most porros use eyepiece focussing. One exception was a series of porros with internal focussing made by Kern/Switzerland many years ago. However, even with eyepiece focussing binoculars needn't leak like a sieve. Perhaps the best known example is a roof with eyepiece foscussing, the Zeiss Classic 7x42BGATP. They seem to be pretty well-sealed despite that weak spot. Just don't use drop them into a lake ...:))

As to shockproofing - itt isn't that difficult to make shockproof porros. Some of the most rugged binoculars ever made are porros, for instance the Zeiss/Hensoldt range of military binoculars or the Russian BPO's. The Zeiss West porros of the 1950's and 1960's were also as good as modern roofs in that respect. I've looked through quite a few over the years, and the only one that had lost its collimation had been dropped from a height of more than 1.5 meters on a wooden floor. Zeiss used what they called a "Prismenstuhl" in their porros rather than the traditional method of fixing the prisms directly to the body of the bins. From all I know they still employ the same system in their 7x50BGAT, also a *very* rugged binocular.

Hermann
 
Well, I guess the old porro "secret" has been out for some time after all, but I'm happy to know my eyes are not deceiving me. According to Dan at Mirakel (who realigned them), the Nikon 8x30A's optics are basically the same as used in the modern E (and SE?) model. The main difference is rubber eyecups, which frankly I don't favor anyway. I prefer to lock the bino to my brow bone to minimize vibration. Of course, the bino's eye relief and one's skull geometry have to be just right, but it works in my case. Apparently, porros can also be ruggedized a bit by cementing the prisms.

elkcub
 
Kevin Mac said:
At the price of roofs nowadays maybe it's worth it to buy older porros even if they do die in a driving rainstorm?

My point exactly, AND get a better view! To overcome that last problem I bought a Zing neoprene cover today that fits the old Nikon 8x30s like a wet suit. It handles bumps nicely too. ;)

Does anyone have an opinion/recommendation about the Zeiss 10x50 porros of yesteryear? Prices on eBay are very attractive for what look to be mint specimens. Thanks,
elkcub
 
elkcub said:
My point exactly, AND get a better view! To overcome that last problem I bought a Zing neoprene cover today that fits the old Nikon 8x30s like a wet suit. It handles bumps nicely too. ;) Thanks, elkcub


Elkcub, what is a Zing cover, how much does it cost and where can you buy it???
 
elkcub said:
Does anyone have an opinion/recommendation about the Zeiss 10x50 porros of yesteryear? Prices on eBay are very attractive for what look to be mint specimens. Thanks,
elkcub

Mint Zeiss 10X50's at very attractive prices on eBay are certain to be Zeiss Jena Jenoptems or Dekarems, pre WWII designs that continued in production for decades in East Germany after the war. They can be quite good but quality control was notoriously bad.

Such is the cachet of old West German Zeiss porros among collectors that a mint condition 10X50 from the 50's or 60's (a much more sophisticated and well made bin than the Zeiss Jena) would probably fetch $600-900 on eBay. I think old Nikons are usually particularly good deals on eBay. Collectors are not much interested in them in spite of their high quality.
 
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william j clive said:
Elkcub, what is a Zing cover, how much does it cost and where can you buy it???

William,
The Zing Bags are sold by "Zing, Division of the Saunders Group, 21 Jet View Drive, Rochester, NY 14824," Their web site www.saundersphoto.com is very productive. (I think) I've attached a .pdf of the tag from my item: catalog no. 575-104 (AGI). This particular one fits the Nikon 8x30A like it was made for it, and would work for any binoc of similar dimensions (6.75" x 4" x 2") since it stretches. They may have other sizes. Mine is green and I know they make blue.
elkcub
PS. Boy, I'm having a hard time learning how to use this posting system. Must be missing something essential ... like intelligence. :h?:
 

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elkcub said:
According to Dan at Mirakel (who realigned them), the Nikon 8x30A's optics are basically the same as used in the modern E (and SE?) model.
elkcub

The 8X30 A had a different eyepiece with shorter eye relief than the one used in the 8x30 E. The eyepiece in the SE is different from either with much longer eye relief and a field flattening element that gives it much better edge sharpness. Of couse the SE uses modern multi-coatings which makes it brighter and higher contrast. The same coatings were also used for about the last 5 years of production of the E series. I guess the EII would be the closest thing to a direct descendent of the A series.

The Nikons and the Swaro Habichts are the last of a long tradition. 50 years ago every firm, Zeiss, B&L, Leitz, Swarovski, Kern, Nikon, etc. made elegant high quality 8X30 porros. Now it's down to Nikon and Swarovski, with only Nikon still introducing new designs.
 
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henry link said:
Mint Zeiss 10X50's at very attractive prices on eBay are certain to be Zeiss Jena Jenoptems or Decarems, pre WWII designs that continued in production for decades in East Germany after the war. They can be quite good but quality control was notoriously bad.

Such is the cachet of old West German Zeiss porros among collectors that a mint condition 10X50 from the 50's or 60's (a much more sophisticated and well made bin than the Zeiss Jena) would probably fetch $600-900 on eBay. I think old Nikons are usually particularly good deals on eBay. Collectors are not much interested in them in spite of their high quality.

Nice summary. So, how would one recognize a 50's or 60's porro that meets such quality criteria? Are there particular variations or models? I know that I lucked out on the Nikon I bought. I just like the "Nippon Kogaku" label that I associated with the quality of my old Nikon S3 camera rig of the same vintage.

Zeiss/Leica quality control. Just before taking this tack on old porros I went through a spate of returning no less than two Zeiss 10x40 "ClassiC" binocs because of misalginment right out of the box, and one Leica Ultravid 10x42 BL because of loose eyecups right out of the box.

Based on this experience I've come to the sad conclusion that binocular choice involves more than just user preferences and needs. Unfortunately, the individual binocular specimen also plays a major role, even with high-end brands. Maybe this has been with the industry all along. I must say that Swarovski roof binocs seem to be more predictable. Might that extend to the older 10x40 Swarovski porros, — and how do they rate to collectors?

elkcub
 
elkcub said:
Might that extend to the older 10x40 Swarovski porros, — and how do they rate to collectors? elkcub

I don't know about older Swarovski porros, because there are very few of them in the U.S. I owned (briefly) a recent pair of their 10x40 porros. At close range their resolution was exceptional, and their color fidelity was fantastic. At greater distances their resolution dropped off to the point that I could see more detail with good 8x binoculars (maybe one of the more scientific-minded contributors to this forum could explain that). They also suffered from severe chromatic aberration, showing a strong reddish fringe around high-contrast subjects. I sold them because my hands are not steady enough to derive the benefit of 10x.
 
henry link said:
The 8X30 A had a different eyepiece with shorter eye relief than the one used in the 8x30 E. The eyepiece in the SE is different from either with much longer eye relief and a field flattening element that gives it much better edge sharpness. Of couse the SE uses modern multi-coatings which makes it brighter and higher contrast. The same coatings were also used for about the last 5 years of production of the E series. I guess the EII would be the closest thing to a direct descendent of the A series.

The Nikons and the Swaro Habichts are the last of a long tradition. 50 years ago every firm, Zeiss, B&L, Leitz, Swarovski, Kern, Nikon, etc. made elegant high quality 8X30 porros. Now it's down to Nikon and Swarovski, with only Nikon still introducing new designs.

Henry,

How long do you think Nikon will continue to manufacturer the SE 8X32 and 10X42 bins?

John
 
John Traynor said:
Henry,

How long do you think Nikon will continue to manufacturer the SE 8X32 and 10X42 bins?

John

I don't know. There have been rumours that they were about to go on this forum. So far it hasn't happened. I'd be happy to see improved versions.

Maybe it means something that Nikon has continued to make the same classic 7X50 Prostar for almost 20 years with no obvious change (including no improvement in the sorry eyecups).

Henry
 
henry link said:
The 8X30 A had a different eyepiece with shorter eye relief than the one used in the 8x30 E. The eyepiece in the SE is different from either with much longer eye relief and a field flattening element that gives it much better edge sharpness. Of couse the SE uses modern multi-coatings which makes it brighter and higher contrast. The same coatings were also used for about the last 5 years of production of the E series. I guess the EII would be the closest thing to a direct descendent of the A series.

Henry,
How does the EII differ from the E and SE, — older coatings? I think it also has a longer eye relief than my A and somewhat wider FOV. How do the "Action" Nikons made in China rate in general or differ from these optically? Thanks,
elkcub
 
elkcub said:
Henry,
How does the EII differ from the E and SE, — older coatings? I think it also has a longer eye relief than my A and somewhat wider FOV. How do the "Action" Nikons made in China rate in general or differ from these optically? Thanks,
elkcub

The E is no longer available. The EII is it's replacement and uses what look to be the same coatings as the SE. I haven't compared it directly to the old E. I compared the EII briefly in a store to the SE and thought it had similar performance in the center of the field, but was not as good off axis. Hardly anything is. I haven't seen the current Nikon Actions, so I don't know how they compare optically

The old Zeiss West porros you asked about have a unique appearance. The 7X50, 8X50 and 10X50 have huge prism housings and very short objective tubes. The center focus models have a large focusing wheel at the objective end of the center hinge. The Zeiss Jena's in contrast have the conventional "zeiss" style shape.
 
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