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Scottish Crossbill - dubious split? any DNA proof? (1 Viewer)

C

crossbill

Member
I'm a new member so first of all, hello! I have posted a short introduction in the say hello section in case you want to know more about me.
Now, for my question. I don't know whether any of you remember a very lively discussion you had at the end of 2003 about the Scottish Crossbill? I came across it a week or so ago and was really interested in some of the points raised, particularly the suggestion that the Scottish Crossbill's "discovery" may well have had quite a lot to do with the fact that conservationists here needed an iconic Scottish bird to help them get European funding.
I was wondering if some of you who took part in that discussion would be willing to chat again and perhaps update me.
I would be particularly interested to know whether anyone knows if conclusive DNA tests have been carried out to determine whether the Scottish crossbill is indeed separate from other Crossbills.
I hope some of you can help. ;)
 
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Sorry I am not all that familiar with the "crossbill discussion". Here in the states we just have Red Crossbills and White-winged Crossbills. I know even here there are on-going discussions about "sorting out" the various "strains" of the Red Crossbill, particularly.

I am posting this to "bump it up" and perhaps someone will respond to your request for some more discussion on this topic.

One of the original threads on this issue was here:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=9413
 
Hi Crossbill welcome to BF, Having spent a week in the Scottish Highlands and saw both the Common and Scottish, its clear both birds more or less the same species with the Scottish species slighty more stockier with a heavier bill as you know, I for one, hope the day never arrives when they become one, and it has been dicussed again, it will take a brave soul to remove the the Scottish Crossbill, never did see a Parrot Crossbill while I was there.......what about them !!
 
Thanks to both of you. Hope you don't mind my bumping this one up again, as you so nicely put it Larry! Promise it will be the last time I'll do it if it still doesn't attract much interest!
 
Thanks guys.
The lively discussion in 2003 that I referred to was the one Tim and Larry have directed me to.
I am thinking of writing a story in my newspaper about the argument that the Scottish Crossbill is not a distinct species (which is why that thread was of such interest). However, to do that I need to find out whether anyone has proved, beyond a doubt, that it is (otherwise I am going to look very foolish!).
Research was mentioned during that discussion that I am sure would be extremely helpful to me ... but I have no idea how to track it down. (Just checked and it was Robinm who mentioned that research - are you still out there?)
...here's hoping!
 
crossbill said:
Just checked and it was Robinm who mentioned that research - are you still out there?)
...here's hoping!
Click to expand...
I'm still here (do I hear howls of disapproval;))

I will see if I can find the link - may take some time. I remember David Jardine was one of those involved.

There was also a brief reference to Crossbills in the October BB article on taxonomy.
 
robinm said:
I'm still here (do I hear howls of disapproval;))

I will see if I can find the link - may take some time. I remember David Jardine was one of those involved.

There was also a brief reference to Crossbills in the October BB article on taxonomy.
Click to expand...

The BB article says "there are no clear differences among the DNA of any of the three current western European species". It doesn't, however, say they are not different species. But as Robin says it is a bit of brief mention.

When I discuss Scottish Crossbill with other birders most feel guilty about that tick on their list. Concerned that even if it is a genuine species did they really see the right birds or just tick a crossbill sp. in the right area.

Steve
 
Don't remember what my UK list is anymore anyhow, but having read much of Lindsay's threads this year, I couldn't say the Scotbills I ticked way back in the 80s were them or not ...so on my super-dooper cleaned-up list, it is certainly minus one :)
 
Steve Babbs said:
The BB article says "there are no clear differences among the DNA of any of the three current western European species". It doesn't, however, say they are not different species. But as Robin says it is a bit of brief mention.
Click to expand...


The bit in the BB paper that is most relevant to this thread is tucked away in a figure legend
'As Britain’s only currently recognised endemic bird species, the Scottish Crossbill is a signature species for its habitat and attracts major conservation funding for the Caledonian pine forests. Genetically, however, it appears to be indistinguishable from Common and Parrot Crossbills. In the current age, when conservation effort is increasingly concentrated in the protection of genetic biodiversity, where does Scottish Crossbill stand?'

The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating. The BB paper draws parallels with Ground Finches Geospiza in the galapagos, where the different speces also are largely differentiated by bill size and are not genetically distinguishable. There is also a lot of hybridisation, but in most years this doesn't matter as there is plenty to eat and birds can survive pretty much whatever their bill size is. It's only in difficult years (on galapagos, for example, prolonged drought) where severe natural selection only allows survival of birds with bills 'optimal' for their specialised food supply, and birds with intermediate bills are snuffed. Something similar might happen with Crossbills.
 
The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating.

assortative mating is 'apparent'

no-one really knows what the Fc3/EcC calls are; Fc3 given by med birds!

no genetic diffs

basically no evidence

if it were a 'species' we'd have known years ago

let's not open it all up again - it was done to death in original thread

tim
 
Tim Allwood said:
The Scotbill split stands largely on the basis of intermediate bill size and apparent assortative mating.

assortative mating is 'apparent'

no-one really knows what the Fc3/EcC calls are; Fc3 given by med birds!

no genetic diffs

basically no evidence

if it were a 'species' we'd have known years ago

let's not open it all up again - it was done to death in original thread

tim
Click to expand...

assortative mating can and has been shown/proven - birds giving same calls, same bill depths, progeny exhibiting bill and call habits of parents

only Fc3 in Med so far, possibly more worrying is that they are giving Parrot EcD !!! 3:)

Genetic diff. has been addressed by Doc Martin re- finches in Galapagos

also........they have a Scottish accent : " Och aye min, I am a Scoateesh Crossbull, ye ken"

I agree lets not open it up again......people fall out :-C

Linz
 
Hi,
Just wanted to say thanks for opening the whole debate up again - even if it had been done to death in previous threads! It helps me a lot.
Lindsay, I will have a chat to Ron and look at the other threads you mentioned (need to set aside a bit of time by the sounds of it!)
...can I just check that I've got the basic argument right: No DNA differences between Scottish, Parrot, Common Crossbills. Scottish Crossbill identified by its differing calls and bill length. For many people these differences are so slight that it becomes extremely difficult to distinguish them from other Crossbills. Some believe the Scottish Crossbill may in fact just be a hybrid (I presume this would be a cross between Parrot and Common?). However, others (Lindsay in this case!) say Crossbills with the bill length and calls we are talking about are only found in Scotland - if it was a hybrid then surely it would also be found on the continent.
I'm not asking you to repeat everything you've said here, just correct me if any of the above is wrong!
 
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