Alauda arvensis scotica? (1 Viewer)

Capercaillie71 · Jun 28, 2007

I recently found a reference to this subspecies of skylark, presumably inhabiting Scotland. I was unaware that our skylarks were considered to be different from everyone else's. It seems strange, particularly as Scottish skylarks are not particularly geographically isolated. Does anyone know what the justification for this subspecies is?

griffin · Jun 28, 2007

Svensson p.67 says:

"Incl. here [under Ssp. arvensis] is ssp. 'scotica' (N.British Isles), claimed to differ from nominate by being slightly darker and tinged more rufous above on average, but difference too slight and overlap too large to warrant separation".

Bit in BWP also.

What about 'our own' Scottish Linnet Carduelis cannabina autochthona too eh ?

Splitters, bah ! (only joking)

Linz

Steve G · Jun 28, 2007

Capercaillie71 said:
I recently found a reference to this subspecies of skylark, presumably inhabiting Scotland. I was unaware that our skylarks were considered to be different from everyone else's. It seems strange, particularly as Scottish skylarks are not particularly geographically isolated. Does anyone know what the justification for this subspecies is?

It's all down to subtle biochemical differences with ssp scotica having very high levels of silicones on the body feathering; an adaption to ease life in a land of perpetual rain!!!!! :eek!: :-C

Nicola Main · Jun 28, 2007

I didn't think we had constant rain? Beautiful picture though Steve

mountain man · Jun 28, 2007

Has anyone ever thought about Scottish Chaffinches? That chink call they make around Aviemore is pretty different to my Mancunian birds.

HH75 · Jun 28, 2007

I think that Chaffinch vocalisations, though moreso 'rain songs', differ quite a bit between different local populations, but I'm not sure whether this is enough to suggest at least that said populations may qualify as subspecies, or whether it's more on a par with the example of the Quail given in the Sound Approach to illustrate local dialects?
Regards,
Harry

Mike Pennington · Jun 28, 2007

There are widespread differences in Chaffinch songs and calls, which seem to follow little pattern. Along the Black Sea coast the call ends in Great Spot like 'kik' but inland in Bulgaria they do not have this. As Harry syas, they are best thought of as dialects.

Mike Pennington · Jun 28, 2007

There was a taxonomist who worked in Scotland, Philip Clancey, who had a tendency to name subspecies on the slightest of clinal differences, and A. a. scotica is one of them, adopted by almost no-one else since.

Scottish Linnet Carduelis cannabina autochthona is more widely accepted, although the differences are subtle. There is some good evidence for the race being isolated - there are no recoveries of Scottish-ringed Linnets in England I believe. There will be quite a lot on sibspecies in the forthcoming Birds of Scotland.

KnockerNorton · Jun 28, 2007

Mike Pennington said:
There will be quite a lot on sibspecies in the forthcoming Birds of Scotland.

there was a period in the early 20th Century when people were claiming subspecies for all sort of birds, with very little evidence and very small sample sizes. Wha they were seeing was local variability - songs and calls differ between quite small areas, but that doesn't make them a subspecies.

It's worth bearing in mind that political climates often influence these periods of 'splitting' (hence the interwar splitting frenzy in the UK, and subsequent lumping frenzy coinciding with the birth of the UN and EEC!) and nationalistic countries claiming a form of their own. I suspect that the forthcoming Birds of Scotland will reflect this.

Mike Pennington · Jun 28, 2007

Poecile said:
there was a period in the early 20th Century when people were claiming subspecies for all sort of birds, with very little evidence and very small sample sizes. Wha they were seeing was local variability - songs and calls differ between quite small areas, but that doesn't make them a subspecies.

It's worth bearing in mind that political climates often influence these periods of 'splitting' (hence the interwar splitting frenzy in the UK, and subsequent lumping frenzy coinciding with the birth of the UN and EEC!) and nationalistic countries claiming a form of their own. I suspect that the forthcoming Birds of Scotland will reflect this.

No, it will reflect current BOU taxonomy.

griffin · Jun 29, 2007

Gollocks

Poecile said:
It's worth bearing in mind that political climates often influence these periods of 'splitting' ...........and nationalistic countries claiming a form of their own. I suspect that the forthcoming Birds of Scotland will reflect this.

Not all of us up here voted for or support those Nationalist idiots or have nationalistic tendencies. And yes as pointed out above it is the BOU who decide and determine UK speciation and as far as I can tell the B stands for BRITISH.

BOS3, as far as I can tell, has no political agenda.

Big Phil · Jun 29, 2007

Mike Pennington said:
Along the Black Sea coast the call ends in Great Spot like 'kik' but inland in Bulgaria they do not have this. As Harry syas, they are best thought of as dialects.

Interesting. I have heard this commonly this spring in Sweden in two different areas, and also in Latvia last week, but haven't heard it in Britain. Very distracting when straining to hear woodpeckers!. How widespread is this?.

citrinella · Jun 29, 2007

tom mckinney said:
Has anyone ever thought about Scottish Chaffinches? That chink call they make around Aviemore is pretty different to my Mancunian birds.

I wouldn't pay any attention to this. As lots of folk say - dialects. Consider that a recent study found that cows on different Somerset farms had different "dialects". Different species ? Maybe to the British Bovinologists Union, all were the same breed (Holsteins) to me.

Mike.

citrinella · Jun 29, 2007

Mike Pennington said:
Scottish Linnet Carduelis cannabina autochthona is more widely accepted, although the differences are subtle. There is some good evidence for the race being isolated - there are no recoveries of Scottish-ringed Linnets in England I believe. There will be quite a lot on sibspecies in the forthcoming Birds of Scotland.

A ringer who has recently started working on my farm has been talking about this. IIRC he said there are a very few. He is concerned that there is a hole in ringing effort for linnet in southern Scotland (which he is aiming to plug), thus the lack of movements could be a sampling artefact. 380 odd ringed last winter, hope future efforts are as successful. Hopefully this will improve the evidence on movements.

Mike.

P.S. Remember, if you see a dead bird - check it for rings

Apparently recovery rates now are a fraction of what they were 40 or 50 years ago.

Capercaillie71 · Jun 30, 2007

Thanks for all the comments. Seems like the 'Scottish' Skylark is a load of nonsense then. Interesting about the linnets though.

Docmartin · Jun 30, 2007

Mike Pennington said:
There was a taxonomist who worked in Scotland, Philip Clancey, who had a tendency to name subspecies on the slightest of clinal differences, and A. a. scotica is one of them, adopted by almost no-one else since.

Scottish Linnet Carduelis cannabina autochthona is more widely accepted, although the differences are subtle. There is some good evidence for the race being isolated - there are no recoveries of Scottish-ringed Linnets in England I believe. There will be quite a lot on sibspecies in the forthcoming Birds of Scotland.

For anyone interested in Clancey, he was dealt with briefly in the Secret Freezer a couple of months back. Here.

Allen S. Moore · Jul 6, 2007

A bit off thread to ask this question, true, but Mike has made the following point

citrinella said:
Mike.

P.S. Remember, if you see a dead bird - check it for rings Apparently recovery rates now are a fraction of what they were 40 or 50 years ago.

What fraction are recovery rates compared with 40 or 50 years ago? Is that just birds found dead by members of the public (anyone who is not a ringer), or all recoveries?
Allen

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