Are birders sexist? (1 Viewer)

[Cristian Mihai]

They're too busy doing the washing and cooking to reply; maybe later when the ironing is done (note the smiley; it means that I'm not serious|=)|)

All people are sexist, at least groups of each sex are sexist when together. Go to a Pub and listen to a group of men; they'll be plenty of sexist remarks about women. Do the same if there's a group of women together, and the sexist remarks will be about men.

However, listen to the same groups taking about: the French/Germans/Americans/Russians... short people/tall people/people with short hair/no hair... etc.

I've no experience of "birders", but I can see no reason why they should be any different from anyone else.

:t:

 

[Brian2]

In any group there will be sexist remarks, some said with humour and accepted as that,(banter) some said with humour and not so accepted and others just misplaced or mis timed or even just to be offensive. Best practice would be not to say it and just accept people as fellow birders and talk about the birds and If conversation leads other places accept it but don't assume because it's a man next to you he'll want to talk football or because it's a woman she won't.
And remember the woman or the man in the hide is there because they enjoy the same hobby as you, they might know more or less than you but they can both learn or teach so just enjoy the company.

 

[angusmcoatup]

Friend, I appreciate this topic doesn't interest you but, to be clear, I don't for a minute presume that my admittedly circumstantial and unsystematic observations here in the UK also apply to Nevada (a part of the US I have never visited, although wold like to). Neither do I presume others should share my curiosity about the domestic arrangements of big name twitchers, which I fully concede is an eccentric preoccupation of mine!

To use a further stale cliche, if this thread is not to your liking then why post in it so much?

I'm enjoying this thread. The behaviour and motivation of birders is always of interest. Keep it going.

 

[TwoDipsfromAmsterdam]

Perhaps we should all help this PhD student:

http://www.bubo.org/News/investigating-the-distinctive-features-of-birders.html

David

 

[Jane Turner]

It'd be interesting to hear what the female BFers think about this?

I think its a big non-issue. The only thing that I have noticed... and it amuses the pants off me, is that a lot of birders that don't know me (usually men but that's probably based on numbers) will walk past me and ask another bloke if x is showing, or is there anything about etc. Especially funny if its a bird I've found in the 1st place.

 

[pete wragg]

I remember particularly vividly my first and so far only visit to the seawatching hide at Spurn in 2005 where the other birders' "banter" was an abhorrent melange of casual racism and sexism.

If you were offended by the banter in Spurn seawatching hut, you don't want to go in Crown and Anchor after 9.00pm, it gets much worse/better B

Pete.

 

[lewis20126]

I've just asked the dolly who sits next to me at work and she doesn't think its true.

cheers, a

 

[dalat]

Perhaps we should all help this PhD student:

http://www.bubo.org/News/investigating-the-distinctive-features-of-birders.html

David

Very much off topic, but I quite like that part of the quoted link:

Anecdotal evidence seems to suggest some similarities between serious birding and other demanding, intense-focused pursuits such as ultrarunning, mountain climbing, and long-distance swimming, (...)

 

[forthbirder]

In the last ten years at least 90 % of the sexist / mysoginistic comments I've heard are from women about men. Its just that most feminists cannot recognise the prejudice within themselves, and therefore still feel outrage when they here a simliar comment made by a man about a woman. When you get right down to it, its all just people, and there are clowns and undesirables in EVERY demographic group.

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

I noticed a much higher percentage of women birders when I was down in Norfolk earlier in the year than I see in my area, I wondered wether the much larger choice of big reserves which bring with them things like toilets and cafe etc had anything to do with it or am I being sexist suggesting that

On a completely serious note, the toilet remark probably is close to the truth in some respects in that I've had female birding companions whose choices in birding spots were determined to some degree by the fact that more women are more reluctant to "go in nature" than men generally are for practical reasons . Obviously a lot of female birders/walkers/naturalists are happy to do it, but if you were to take a section of the wider community (non-birders to you and I), you'd get a hell of a lot more men saying they'd be comfortable doing that than women, which may be part of the explanation as to why the hobby is generally more taken up by men.

Obviously there are also going to be differences in different social groups, whether related to sex or race, in what is considered socially "acceptable". In 22 years of birding I've only ever had one male non-birder refer to it as "sad" and about 10-15 female non-birders say the same, what this reflects may be open to interpretation, but again it may explain why more females don't take up the hobby

 

[Jane Turner]

Never heard of a She-wee then

http://www.shewee.com/categories/Shewee-Products/

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Never heard of a She-wee then

http://www.shewee.com/categories/Shewee-Products/

I hadn't but I have now!

seriously though..."stool in a stool - the ploo" :-O Viz would be proud of that one!

 

[Steve Babbs]

Not trying to be glib, but don't most people bird watch alone so to whom are you going to be sexist?

Britain's a small over-populated country. Even if you going birding abroad, there's a good chance of ending up with others.

Yes I think many birders are sexist in birding i.e. they probably are less likely to take a woman's views seriously over an identification. Unless that woman has a proven record - as several have on this forum. I'm not sure this is a general sexism, just a birding one. That's doesn't mean I'm defending it; it's just my humble opinion.

I really like to think I'm not sexist, but I have to admit to using the term 'tarts' tick! Maybe it is, but I would use the term 'tart' to refer to a bloke as much as a woman.

I've never got the impression birders are racist at all. I would have thought anyone making racist statements at a gathering of birders would fairly quickly get abused. I would certainly, politely, point out that their views were unacceptable. Would I do the same with sexism. Probably not if it was using terms like 'tart's tick', probably yes if it was saying 'women generally can't identify birds'.

 

[Adam W]

On a completely serious note, the toilet remark probably is close to the truth in some respects in that I've had female birding companions whose choices in birding spots were determined to some degree by the fact that more women are more reluctant to "go in nature" than men generally are for practical reasons . Obviously a lot of female birders/walkers/naturalists are happy to do it, but if you were to take a section of the wider community (non-birders to you and I), you'd get a hell of a lot more men saying they'd be comfortable doing that than women, which may be part of the explanation as to why the hobby is generally more taken up by men.

That was pretty much my thinking, My personal experience with a female birding companion is with a female non birder so I wasnt sure wether it really was a male/female issue or perhaps more a birder/non birder issue,probably a bit of both but as you say the toilet issue is far more likely to be an issue for women than men.

 

[Adam W]

Never heard of a She-wee then

http://www.shewee.com/categories/Shewee-Products/

Yes but the suggestion of it being a christmas present didnt go down too well.

 

[Jane Turner]

Yes I think many birders are sexist in birding i.e. they probably are less likely to take a woman's views seriously over an identification.

Allegedly ( As I heard it)
Years ago.... there was a Red-throated Pipit at Filey, in the grass of the Totem-pole field. Quite early on its its stay a female birder pointed out that it had all three tertials and a clear primary projection. Sometime later, it was re-identified as a Pechora

 

[Farnboro John]

In Western society the legal requirement to treat the sexes equally constrains the hard-wired tendency to (a) recognise the differences between them in many physical, intellectual and psychological respects) and (b) to celebrate membership of a group by, in the modern idiom, dissing those who are not.

When not so constrained e.g. in a hide surrounded by apparently like-minded members of the same group, the tendencies manifest more obviously, and pack behaviour often magnifies the effect.

But its a self-balancing equation: men want things from women (perhaps some women will say they want nothing from men, but they are sexist and sociopathic) and therefore cannot truly afford to alienate women completely. And vice versa.

So the snide one-upping and group bonding through scape-goating and all the other less pleasant/hilarious (perspective question) habits that run through any two antipathetic formations of the human race, not just male/female birder/non-birder, come down to overdoing it makes you an outcast, possibly from a group you would like to have some sort of relations with..... place your bets, cast your die, make your bed and lie in it. I bet anyone who is anti-sexist has a different flaw, not none.

And for the record, I believe that being a hobbyist of any description is fundamentally a sublimation of the hunting instinct and therefore MAINLY the preserve of the male. Not exclusively.

John

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Allegedly ( As I heard it)
Years ago.... there was a Red-throated Pipit at Filey, in the grass of the Totem-pole field. Quite early on its its stay a female birder pointed out that it had all three tertials and a clear primary projection. Sometime later, it was re-identified as a Pechora

I think the problem is that every birder has, at some point, had an ID questioned or doubted, or an awkward silence because the locals/usual twitching crowd didn't know him/her. Does the odd anecdote coming from a female not just indicate that she was treated the same way as everyone else, as opposed to because she was female? :eek!:

Would it not indeed have been more sexist if she was treated in a different way because she was female?

In a society where we still cling to certain ideals such as it not being a gentlemanly thing to do to swear in front of a female, does the odd awkward silence just reflect an apprehension to argue openly about an ID with a female, in a situation where the ID would have been openly questioned coming from a male?

In "the other thread" someone used the word hysterical, which has been used countless times directed at men with no comment, yet as soon as it was mentioned in a thread started by a female, there were at least two nasty posts alluding to sexism

All things to consider

 

[Jane Turner]

She is the wife of one of the regulars. But I was just responding to your point above.

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

She is the wife of one of the regulars. But I was just responding to your point above.

That's fair enough, I wasn't argueing against what you said specifically anyway, but making points that demonstrate how difficult this subject can be to discuss and your post gave me an opportunity to air one of those points! My studies back in the day were always science based, and I've always carried with me that to have a hypothesis you have to have a null hypothesis, whether you agree with the hypothesis or not, it's needed for a balanced viewpoint :t: