Repairing TSN-3? have I been scammed? (1 Viewer)

[Petiso]

Hi guys, i'm new to this forum but i want you to know i have been reading your post for months, this is a great place to learn, thanks to you all for sharing your knowledge there's a lot of people enjoying every word you post , quietly in the shadows :t:.

I have been specially interested in the legacy scopes like the (almost now) legentadary Kowas TSN.

I have been searching for a Kowa TSN-3 fluorite for weeks and finally i got one at Ebay from UK, it was about 500 euros with wide 30x eyepiece, plus (expensive inflated) shipping cost so not a bargain i know ... and was a pretty generous money for the seller.

The seller listed the item "like new" and said y only had a "a slight scuff mark at the top of the lens". Besides, all the photos where made from the profile none of them showing the front.

https://www.ebay.es/itm/KOWA-TSN-3-Spotting-Scope-PROMINAR-FLUORITE-LENS/202978455450?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Sadly, i must say im feeling quite scammed know when i got the scope and i was quite excited unpacking it just to find the hood was clearly dented (photo added). Is just cosmetic , but you know i will never sell this one for a fair price AND i paid for a scope in mint condition, so... quite sad.

The eyepiece is pretty pretty scratched, its ok i can deal with it (its an old scope) i'm planning to replace that eventually.

Theres some clues that the front lens have been removed at some point because the locking lens ring looks manipulated and the lens is somewhat scratched from inside (???) i dont know if had any repair or something, or just someone attempted to unscrew the retaining ring.
Thats why I'm getting a little paranoid right know i can't help but think that the fluorite element could been replace for some cheaper TSN-1/2 front element.

Could you tell me guys if there's some way to know that the crystal is indeed pure fluorite?

There some technique or tool wich could be used to mitigate the denting on the lens shade? it comes out with some difficulty due to deformation.


Thank you so much

 

[Steve]

welcome to BF.

 

[PYRTLE]

Reading your post and carefully looking at the image I would agree that it is far from "like new" and certainly not worth the €500 you paid, and I would request a full refund. Whist accepting that the TSN3 and eyeieces are now quite aged. It seems a poor investment if purchased to sell on in time for a profit. Definitely not a keeper. Tip, a good specimen will have had a stay on case for protection.
Dont delay - return it.

 

[slingworks]

Hey Petiso,

Well that's an interesting mix.....I like that you have an interest in the more classic models.

Your seller certainly did do his best to avoid what he should have pictured....

It can probably be repaired, but Ebay has a buyer protection policy. If you use it they will force the seller to accept it back (It's not as described) and Ebay will issue the refund.

I'd say it's probably been taken apart for a cleaning or repair at some point, probably by a camera shop.

It could be repaired by someone with skill, but only as a last resort.

It is possible that when it took a fall, the objective was damaged and replaced, But I'd say from the looks, it's probably the original lens. If it's scratched on the inside, I'd bet it was taken apart and reassembled in reverse. (Scratches likely being from when the now inside surface of the lens was once the outside).

There is a test you can do, shining a cheap (Green?) laser into the objective. I don't remember the full detail, JRING posted here on BF once or twice with the instructions.

On your eyepiece...Well, the old TSN series EP's are really poor. I can't really see yours, it's it a newer ep? If you pick up any of the new modern eyepieces Kowa makes it will make any TSN-3 a real gem. I had a TSN-3 for a short while and It was a very good optic.

 

[jring]

Hi,

first of all, welcome to BF!

Sorry to hear that your TSN-3 came in worse shape than described. That being said, my two examples look worse, but were a bit cheaper. The price of 600€ plus 65€ shipping is indeed a bit on the high side - otoh it came with aluminum tripod and head (which certainly didn't help with the shipping charge) plus a fairly rare and very nice skua case...

The 30x wide EP is actually a good thing as the contemporary 20-60x zoom was awful. There were other fixed mag EPs which were ok too but no really good zoom option, which was the reason why the Swaro AT80HD with its quite usable zoom EP was rapidly gaining in popularity over the Kowa despite being not really up to snuff optically...

Nowadays you can stick a current 20-60x zoom for the 660 and 600 series in there and be done or experiment with the Opticron SDLv2 (or maybe 3 - that is still untested) and make it a great scope... that is if the body is good - and I don't mean cosmetics...

It is quite unlikely that those marks from an incompetent disassembly attempt point to somebody having changed the objective - the whole objective cell and hood can be unscrewed quite easily by extending the hood and grabbing the cell behind the hood and turning counterclockwise - in my examples no tools are needed - otherwise an oil filter wrench and generous padding will do the trick.

The person who scratched the lens retaining ring probably tried to disassemble the objective cell in order to remove the hood... without the proper tool. The hood, when on its own, could probably be brought back in to right form by pressing it on to a cone... in installed state, a truncated cone would be needed and of course a lot of care not to damage the front element in the process.

As for whether the objective has indeed a fluorite back element - shine a green laser pointer in there (ideally a bit from the side, so the beam then hits the tube wall and you don't get more reflections). You will then see 4 bright reflections - one for each surface. The two front ones should be connected by an easily visible line while the two back ones must be unconnected (or a barely visible line) - that is the proof that the back element is indeed fluorite crystal and not some kind of glass, as that has tiny bubbles in there which cause the line to be visible.

Joachim

 

[Petiso]

Hi guys, i really appreciate your warming welcome, and kind advice, Steve Pyrtle, slingworks, jring...

you don't really know how comforting it is to talk to knowledgeable people like you about this case.

I totally love the look and feel of the older scopes, with an eyepiece upgrade i could have been happy as a clam.. im kind of wildlife artist (i try my best) and kinda feel i need an upgrade from my very cheap current scope.

And hi jring i'm a follower of your Kowa TSN post :t:

The price is not 600€ the seller accepted a "Better offer" of 500€ so 565€ is the final price.
Not a bargain just kinda fair price for a telescope "like new" suposedly in mint condition.

The 30x wide eyepiece is finely and profusely scratched and just usable it has a kind of slight haze effect when looking throw, i think (and really hope) that effect is because the eyepiece, and not from the front lens, because im planing to replace the EP.
The stay in case is very cool but pretty deteriorated too, almost brittle on the inner side of the fabric... i will not complaint, it's ok i'm aware this is a very used item, I'm not very fussy, i can deal with that.

As you have already noticed english is not my first language, i may not capture the nuances of language, but could you tell me if a smashed lens hood is a "slight scuff in the top of the lens", and this item has a "like new" condition?

All the photos are made in profile, and the closest photography of the area is even blurred, so, my understanding, is that the seller has deliberately hidden the true condition of the scope, thats why i'm feeling so dissapointed (almost scammed).
There are a pair of much cheaper dented kowas on sale from a very honest sellers around, by the way.

I do not know how this will end or how much money I will lose if I am given the opportunity to return the item.
If finally i have to keep the scope im considering using a tool called lens vise to try to, somehow, fix the circunference.

https://www.amazon.com/-/es/10094973/dp/B07NJS1RML

 

[Binastro]

Petiso, welcome.

The eyepiece is scratched probably on the eye lens from rough cleaning with a hanky, shirt etc.
That causes the haze.

The telescope has been dropped, which caused the hood damage. This is not a bad thing as the impact has caused shock to the hood.
This can be carefully pushed out. If detachable, much easier.

Yes, you have been sold a falsely described scope.
You should return it for full refund.

I bought a supposedly new Zeiss 10x40 Classic binocular from a highly respected British collector. It came from a 'shop' in Germany. It had many fine scratches on the eye lenses. This was not the collector's fault, but a dishonest trader.

I bought a Canon A720 IS camera from a British ad. The seller described it as unmarked. The lens was scratched and useless. He waited till he got my money before sending. I wrote it off.

The internet is a den of iniquity when it comes to fraudulent selling.

There are dishonest people everywhere, but luckily if one is careful many are honest.

Regards,
B.

 

[Binastro]

The hood damage could have happened in delivery to you from the U.K.
If well packed this shouldn't happen, but can if the parcel is used as a football.

But the eyepiece scratches are earlier from user abuse.

B.

 

[PYRTLE]

Please return it as I suggested for a full refund, the item has been incorrectly described and therefore mis - sold to you. Dont attempt to carry out any repairs.
Perhaps next time, purchase from a reputable optics retailer, also consider a Kowa 823.
Good luck.

 

[Petiso]

The hood damage could have happened in delivery to you from the U.K.
If well packed this shouldn't happen, but can if the parcel is used as a football.

But the eyepiece scratches are earlier from user abuse.

B.

Hi Binastro, the scope was VERY well packaged, a big box, with loads of bubble wrap and it was inside its padded case.

I include a photo from the ebay listing where the seller tried to showcase the alleged "Slight Scuff on top of the lens" blurred and with very deceptive angle, you can hardly sense the hood is not a perfect circle (the ellipse), (now that you know you can barely tell that it was already dented).
Besides, theres not a single dent it has some kind of undulations maybe an attempt to straighten it somehow.

 

[Petiso]

I want to make it clear that i do not want to scare anyone, or discourage them from buying this type of second-hand items.

I have bought many many artices on ebay, half of them from UK, an never had a problem, this is the first time, i will buy stuff from ebay sellers again.

Right know, that i know a little better, my only advice would be to make sure that, at least, the communication with the seller is good.
This guy hardly answered to my messages, bad, late, with very few words, and very little info.

In fact, i'm pretty shure he will not reply to my complaint message, so i will try to ask ebay to arbitrate the case.

 

[jring]

Hi,

I normally would recommend to first star test the scope you have and keep it regardless if it is a good example... getting good optics is more important for observing than a dent in the hood (that you will rarely see when in the skua case).

But with a barely functional 30 wide, that is not ideal... you would rather have 60x or more for that...

Joachim

 

[Petiso]

Hi,

I normally would recommend to first star test the scope you have and keep it regardless if it is a good example... getting good optics is more important for observing than a dent in the hood (that you will rarely see when in the skua case).

But with a barely functional 30 wide, that is not ideal... you would rather have 60x or more for that...

Joachim

Not only cosmetic, the hood folds and unfolds with some difficultty, the front lens are kinda scratched from the inside...however i guess it had to be hardly scratched to notice some effect (the eyepieces are more sensitive in this regard.).

I´m testing the scope from my windows, there are house martin nests on the front building... once in a while some beeaters perches on the electric poles cables on the right, some hopoes on the grass of the park...

Im able to get the hint of superb optics WAY better than my previous scope, on the other hand, the painful impression of a performance that is only partly developing, and the impression of having paid a unfair ammout of money, mixed feelings.

Thank you jring for your wise words I will take them into account, for sure

 

[Binastro]

I have bought faulty optics, but at low prices, where I am willing to overlook the faults.

It is the buyer's choice whether to keep or reject optics.

I agree that an attempt may have been made to straighten the dented hood.

Camera lenses that have been dropped are often saved by dented filter rings that have taken an impact rather than the glass itself.

Regards,
B.

 

[slingworks]

Petiso, Ebay is a great place to shop for used glass, I've found some really nice pieces there at great prices.

I've gotten burned a couple of timesthough...on glass from EBay UK. My brother also purchased an older tsn-823 from an optics dealer listing there. Was supposed to be mint and came looking more like a piece together/rebuild w/lots of dust and cleaning marks inside..Sorry for his luck also as he paid good money for it.

Probably the one thing I bought there that still irritates me is one of my little TS 613's.....It's optically very, very good, probably the best 60mm scope I've looked through. However like another item I bought on Ebay UK it arrived smelling strongly of Indian spices.....Very sharp glass so I can't bring myself to sell it, but I hate that smell.

 

[jring]

Probably the one thing I bought there that still irritates me is one of my little TS 613's.....It's optically very, very good, probably the best 60mm scope I've looked through. However like another item I bought on Ebay UK it arrived smelling strongly of Indian spices.....Very sharp glass so I can't bring myself to sell it, but I hate that smell.

Maybe that is the secret for really hot optics - use a good pinch of the curry for the family on it...

Joachim

 

[Petiso]

Hi,


As for whether the objective has indeed a fluorite back element - shine a green laser pointer in there (ideally a bit from the side, so the beam then hits the tube wall and you don't get more reflections). You will then see 4 bright reflections - one for each surface. The two front ones should be connected by an easily visible line while the two back ones must be unconnected (or a barely visible line) - that is the proof that the back element is indeed fluorite crystal and not some kind of glass, as that has tiny bubbles in there which cause the line to be visible.

Joachim

I assume that the trick doesn't work with red lasers right?, no so easy to find the green ones (much more powerful)... I will get one of these.

Thank you for the tip jring.

 

[normjackson]

Maybe that is the secret for really hot optics - use a good pinch of the curry for the family on it...

Joachim

Never mind lemons and cherries, seems like he got a star fruit. I'd be one happy chapati.

 

[mayoayo]

I don't know.. I'm not gonna get into optics evaluation because most have been said already.. TSN3 and TSN4 are very good scopes, so the superb image you are getting comes with the purchase and that is why, you being an informed buyer, bought the scope in the first place. If your unit is average, good, or a cherry unit we don't know.. What we know is that you paid Top price for the model, and received a unit that is not even in good condition.. You see that the scope has been hit, that has been manipulated or repaired, and that the seller lied in the description.. You have been deceived. Period.. And yes a spoon full of sugar makes the medicine go down, but even if the scope offers a superb image you deserve to feel completely satisfy about the purchase, and Ebay and PayPal (if you used it) will help you get that satisfactory online second hand purchase experience.
Contact the seller.. Expose the situation.. And demand a satisfaction. If returning the scope is too complicated a. Good partial refund should apply.. Explain the seller that you are not happy and make Ebay push for your rights if. necessary.. That seller was not legit when he posted the scope as. Mint unit and took advantage. I suggest a 30% refund to feel good about the purchase.. You don't need mixed feelings about it.. Just a Good feeling

 

[normjackson]

I assume that the trick doesn't work with red lasers right?, no so easy to find the green ones (much more powerful)... I will get one of these.

Thank you for the tip jring.

I see Henry had a partial result with a red laser in this thread :
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/695474-so-long-another-true-fuorite-binos-no-two/

But presumably nothing as unequivocal as these :
https://www.cloudynights.com/topic/83435-more-green-laser-nonsense/