Black redstart? (1 Viewer)

[gerald762]

From the front it looks like a Black redstart, but the rear view shows quite a bit of white. Confirmation please. Photo today, SW Spain
Thanks

 

[Butty]

Yes. That's normal. Note grey underparts.

 

[Richard Prior]

Yes, an adult male Gerald, young males can look identical to the females so you can get a breeding pair of female-looking birds but a year later a male would look like the one you pictured, the amount of white can vary though.

 

[gerald762]

Thanks to you both. My( old) book shows very little white, hence the doubt.

 

[Butty]

Duff (old) book.

 

[gerald762]

 

[Richard Prior]

Thanks to you both. My( old) book shows very little white, hence the doubt.

You know what to ask for for your birthday now Gerald!

 

[gerald762]

Good idea. Though it is a long wait until September!

 

[creedence]

Yes, an adult male Gerald, young males can look identical to the females so you can get a breeding pair of female-looking birds but a year later a male would look like the one you pictured, the amount of white can vary though.

The grey breeding males are normally the cairii morph and plumage does not change in subsequent years

 

[Richard Prior]

Thanks, I didn’t know that, none of the literature I’ve been able to find mentions that cairii retains that female-like plumage beyond 1st summer, is there a study ( presumably thanks to colour ringing?) you could point me towards Creedence?

 

[creedence]

Thanks, I didn’t know that, none of the literature I’ve been able to find mentions that cairii retains that female-like plumage beyond 1st summer, is there a study ( presumably thanks to colour ringing?) you could point me towards Creedence?

Actually I’m not sure if what I said was correct, that they do not change their plumage. But if they do change their plumage then I don’t see how they can be morphs, which is what cairii and paradoxus are always referred to as being. Off hand I can’t think of another morph that is only a morph temporarily.

 

[Richard Prior]

Good point C, the plot thickens. Hopefully one of the ringers on Birdforum will have had a retrap or control of a male still all grey but in its 3rd year 🤞

 

[creedence]

Good point C, the plot thickens. Hopefully one of the ringers on Birdforum will have had a retrap or control of a male still all grey but in its 3rd year 🤞

Richard, you were of course correct when you said a male Black Redstart breeding in female type plumage will be in typical adult plumage the following year. You may have already seen the interesting link below.

https://ringersdigiguide.ottenby.se/species/phoenicurus-ochruros/sexing/

 

[Richard Prior]

Phew, I was worried I’d given Gerald some incorrect info.

Thanks for the link, that is a terrific looking site

 

[gerald762]

Richard, don't worry! I can see that the subject is a bit of a minefield and a bit beyond an old fogey such as I.
What are cairii and paradoxus?

 

[Butty]

See the link helpfully provided by Mr Creedence, above.

 

[gerald762]

I missed it on the first scan through the link! Thanks

 

[pianoman]

Yes, an adult male Gerald, young males can look identical to the females so you can get a breeding pair of female-looking birds but a year later a male would look like the one you pictured, the amount of white can vary though.

Intriguing that they can breed before reaching fully adult plumage

 

[MJB]

Intriguing that they can breed before reaching fully adult plumage

Pied, Collared and Semi-collared Flycatchers also can do so.
MJB