-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Philadelphia Vireo? MA, USA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TKbird
- Start date
Thanks for the reply! Which features in particular lead you to that ID?
Here are a few things that incline me toward PHVI:
1) The lower eye-arc seems too thick for BTBW.
2) The white patch on the wing seems a little too far forward for BTBW. PHVIs (and WAVIs) can have a small white section on the lower edge of their shoulder that seems consistent with the footage to me. (e.g. https://i.ytimg.com/vi/AwDazYrjRCA/maxresdefault.jpg)
3) The bill seems too light-colored for BTBW given the lighting.
Last edited:
I do see your point(s). In particular the position of the white mark on the wing edge, which did strike me as being far too far forward to be (as on black-throated blue warbler) the base of the primaries. It does fit the position of the alula or tiny p1 or whatever it is (as shown on your link). The diffuse lower half of the broken eye-ring then makes sense too. I'm guessing that the yellowish on the underparts is enough to rule out warbling vireo, but I'll leave that to you; I'm aware that warbling vireo is not as straightforward as it looks in the books.
Jeff Hopkins
Just another...observer
I scanned through the video in a sort-of frame-by-frame. I'm not seeing a vireo bill. It's a warbler.
In that light, I agree with Microtus.
In that light, I agree with Microtus.
My reading of the issues is that, in Philadelphia vireo, and in a video of this quality, one would not be able to distinguish that a bill is a 'vireo bill'. Hence I'm not - personally - dissuaded by that not being apparent.
Thanks for the observation. Is there a particular aspect that looks most off to you (e.g. thinness in the side view)? My initial instinct is to agree with @Butty.
stuartelsom
Well-known member
This is a very interesting bird for me. As someone who is not based in US but up until Covid was leading regular tours there, I would have said in a fleeting glimpse that this was either a Philadelphia or Warbling Vireo. The main reason for that is the greyish head with clear contrast to the supercilium, i.e. a dark lower border, and the apparently pale lores. I was always under the impression that Black-throated Blue should show dark lores in non-breeding and juvenile plumage, and the supercilium should be white and thinning towards the rear.
The position of the white patch on the wing seems to be wrong for BTBW (as pointed out by TKBird), as that surely should be at the base of the outer primaries.
I'm certainly keen to learn more about this bird, as it challenges my previous experience, and to a certain degree assumptions.
Cheers
Stu
The position of the white patch on the wing seems to be wrong for BTBW (as pointed out by TKBird), as that surely should be at the base of the outer primaries.
I'm certainly keen to learn more about this bird, as it challenges my previous experience, and to a certain degree assumptions.
Cheers
Stu
I am far from an expert and only want to throw in one thing: for a BTBW wouldn't the supercilium need to go further back than shown here?
Regarding the bill: this photo is selected as a certain PHVI in the Birds of the world page Philadelphia Vireo Macaulay Library ML200259151
Niels
Regarding the bill: this photo is selected as a certain PHVI in the Birds of the world page Philadelphia Vireo Macaulay Library ML200259151
Niels
But... if it walks like a Philadelphia vireo, and quacks like a Philadelphia vireo, and there are good reasons why it's not a black-throated blue warbler... Isn't it then a Philadelphia (or maybe warbling) vireo? Or am I missing something?
birdmeister
Well-known member
It's either Phila. Vireo or Warbling for me, too. I'm not seeing the lores dark enough for Philadelphia, and it looks like the throat is quite pale to me. I think Warbling should be in consideration here, but I don't know I'd be confident to call this either way in the field. A good number of Phila. Vireo are darker and more colorful than this (and the opposite is true for Warbling Vireo).
Nice observation about the lores. I personally feel that this could be a result of the low resolution, but I could be wrong. About 40% and 60% of the way through the video when the bird has its head turned toward the camera, the lores do look a bit darker.
I agree that the throat is on the pale side, but I think this is within the range of variation for PHVI. The darkness of the crown in comparison to the mantle and the yellow wash extending over the belly are what incline me toward PHVI. The latter feature, when present on WAVI, I believe also comes along with a yellow tinge to the eye-arcs.
However, I am not at all confident in ruling out WAVI.
qwerty5
Controversial opinion generator
Tail pattern completely rules out BTBW.
This link may be helpful: philadelphia vireo vs warbling vireo identification | Eastern Ontario Birding
"The distribution of yellow as an identifying feature is consistent throughout. With Philadelphia Vireos, the yellowish tones are most intense in the throat and upper breast area. The intensity of yellow here is as high or higher than adjacent areas throughout the underparts. With Warbling Vireos, the opposite is true; the depth of yellowish tone is lowest to the throat and upper breast area and highest along the flanks and undertail."
This bird seems to have the yellow concentrated on the breast, with little on either the throat or the belly and undertail coverts.
This link may be helpful: philadelphia vireo vs warbling vireo identification | Eastern Ontario Birding
"The distribution of yellow as an identifying feature is consistent throughout. With Philadelphia Vireos, the yellowish tones are most intense in the throat and upper breast area. The intensity of yellow here is as high or higher than adjacent areas throughout the underparts. With Warbling Vireos, the opposite is true; the depth of yellowish tone is lowest to the throat and upper breast area and highest along the flanks and undertail."
This bird seems to have the yellow concentrated on the breast, with little on either the throat or the belly and undertail coverts.
This is very interesting, and to me the most compelling argument so far that the bird is not a PHVI. That said, gradients can be difficult to assess under sub-optimal lighting conditions (the same applies to the crown vs. mantle contrast). I'm increasingly feeling that this bird will not be conclusively identifiable to sp.
tom baxter
Well-known member
That is 100% a Philadelphia vireo. Go frame by frame and note the black under tail and the skinny short tail as definitive clincher that it is not a warbler, aside from the high contrast dark cap with white eye arcs which are also spot on. Warbling Vireo can look a lot like a drab Philadelphia Vireo, but this is a rather bright one.
Thanks for the input! I agree that the giss of the bird is too colorful and contrasting for a WAVI. Would you say that the seemingly too pale throat (50% to 70% of the way through the video) is just a trick of the lighting?
To play Devil's advocate, here is a photo I found of a WAVI in shadow showing many similar features: Warbling Vireo Macaulay Library ML262931571
qwerty5
Controversial opinion generator
This picture shows yellow on the undertail coverts, which is good for Warbling, but the bird in your video has white undertail coverts, which would seem to contradict Warbling.
