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Kowa 883 v Swarovski ATS80 (1 Viewer)

wolfbirder

Well-known member
Hi

Not a highly scientific test, but I was able to compare these yesterday at the Birder's Store in Worcester. I'm juts a lay person so don't understand or use all the technical jargon.

I realise the ATX Swarv is the latest of their line, in fairness, but the ATS80 has almost set the standard for a number of years.

I trialled the ATS80 with the 20-50 zoom eyepiece (wide-angled one) and found it excellent with its single large focussing ring. On a bright sunny day distant objects were quickly snapped on to, though it gave a colder less bright image compared to the Kowa. As always, it looked streamlined and robust. Not much else to say really, it was effective, simple to use, and of very good quality - producing an excellent image from 20x to 50x, though it lost a little clarity on max zoom. I did not try it with 20-60 zoom eyepiece as most seem to prefer the 20-50.

The Kowa 883 with the 20-60 zoom eyepiece produced a snappier, brighter image of distant objects, but only just, all the way to the edge. The intensity of colour was deeper. It has a dual focussing ring, and the smaller secondary ring to precisely focus, produced a clarity of image that the Swarovski ATS80 could not quite attain. But the dual focus might mean it takes slightly longer to attain that clarity, not easy when birds are moving around. Probably becomes perfected with practice.

The small focussing ring on the Kowa I looked through was a little loose too, which was a bit concerning. And the eye-relief twist-up cap also seemed to have a bit of grit in as it turned awkwardly. So the model I looked through almost seemed like a 2nd-hand model. A bit concerning 'if' it cannot cope with regular use. This was a new example but obviously the one used as a show-piece example for birders to try. It shouldn't really exhibit these slight faults if it has simply been in the shop. Has anyone else who purchased one experienced these concerns? They probably can be easily fixed in fairness.

Overall I would give the Swarovski ATS80 8.5 out of 10, and the Kowa 883 9 out of 10. The former cost the best part of £2,000, and the Kowa £2400 so both are extremely expensive but you pay for what you get, without doubt.

I needed to go away and consider my options. Still haven't decided.
 
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Hi wolfbirder,

I enjoyed reading your thoughts, the ATS is such a clean design, nothing to snag and of course fully rubber armoured which I find negates the need for a case, but the image from that big 88mm Kowa is mighty, and of course you can add the extender to increase the power, if I was buying new at those prices I think I`d go with the Kowa, but I`d be keeping my Ats65hd.
 
Thanks Tors, I know the ATS65 comes very highly regarded, do you mind me asking whether you have had the opportunity to compare the ATS65 to the ATS80? In terms of optical performance.
 
Nick,

I presume you tested the Swaro with the 25x-50x zoom and the Kowa with the 25x-60x wide angle zoom (TE-11WZ), or was it the old 20x-60x zoom?
I have both the Kowa 883 and a Swaro ATM 65HD (optically the same as the ATS 65, but with a magnesium body).
My Kowa has a few tenths of a millimeter play on the coarse focussing knob and another example I inspected had this too. However, the fine focusser is precise and I use this almost exclusively in the field.

The ATS 65 and ATS 80 have the same 460 mm focal length, so the "slower" f/7 focal ratio of the ATS 65 helps in giving it superb correction of spherical and chromatic aberration. The drawback is of course that the smaller aperture means a smaller exit pupil and lower usable magnifications under poor lighting conditios. However, usable magnification is often limited by heat haze and there are situations, where I am thankful for the lower weight of the ATM 65 and prefer to take it with me than the 883. It has the 30x W eyepiece and at this magnification in good lighting conditions there's not much to choose between it and the 883.

John
 
Thanks Tors, I know the ATS65 comes very highly regarded, do you mind me asking whether you have had the opportunity to compare the ATS65 to the ATS80? In terms of optical performance.

Not in a meaningful way and certainly not in challenging conditions. I will say though that the 65 has never seemed inadequate and has always got the task done, and of course I never look at it wondering whether I can be bothered to carry it around, its never a burden to put it in my backpack.
 
Hi wolfbirder,

cannot really comment, as I don't own an 883 (I'm fine with my 30 year old cherry TSN-3), but of the 10+ examples of 883 I have looked through, all were fine or better. In all fairness, the 2 or 3 ATS/M I have seen were ok too, some ATX not so much.

But if I didn't have the cherry TSN-3, I probably would have an 883 with extender and the great 25-60 wide zoom.

Joachim
 
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Thanks folks, appreciate your feedback.
I think I asked to test the 20 x 60 zoom on the Kowa.
I'm sort of umming and arring between the Swarovski ATS65, ATS80 or the Kowa.
I need to go to a field day, sadly the Midlands is poorly served.
 
I think you need to try the wider eyepiece. I returned mine to Kowa when it developed the dreaded paint-flecks, and was lent the older, narrower eye piece. All i can say is that it was a completely different experience, and perhaps the comparison between the ATS and the 883 would not have been so marked if that had been what i'd seen in the first place.
 
Sorry - forgot the other half of what i meant to aay.
My first serious scope (which i still have) was the ATS65HD, which - at the time of purchase - i compared to the ATS80 and a Leica 65. I found that for my purposes, there was not enough advantage in the ATS80 to overcome the price and size difference, as i was intending to cover long distances with it on my back.
On a trip to Hungary, when surveying a black-necked grebe in full breeding clothes, i compared the view through my ATS65 with that of a friend, who had just bought the Kowa 883, with the (then new) wide angle eyepiece. Absolutely breathtaking.
It then became a mission to eventually get one. However, the intention to sell the ATS to help finance the deal was something i just couldn't go through with, and am glad of the decision. The ATS is still my walking/travelling scope, and if it hadn't been for that moment with the grebe, i think i could have been happy with it forever.
The Kowa, with its magnesium body, is probably slightly more delicate than the Swaro, and - while i have the ATS on a CF tripod and Sirui VA5 head (very lightweight), the Kowa is set up for estuaries and sea-watching, on aluminium legs and a Manfrotto 500 head - more stable, but heavier.
The ability to jack the 883 up to 96x with the 1.6 extender is really something when you have good light too.....
So, i would give serious consideration to what i wanted the scope for if i was starting again. I've put the Swaro into situations i'd baulk at taking the Kowa, and it's a robust, lightweight, fantastic instrument which i use a great deal.
There's no doubt in my mind that the 883, however, is one of the best one or two spotting scopes out there though.
 
I'll give it a try at the Rutland Water Birdfair, cheers Paddy.
Very interesting thoughts.

I've only got an Opticron travel scope as a back up, would love an ATS65 as one.
 
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I own a Kowa 883 with the 25-60 eyepice. It is regularly used. The images through that scope are fantastic. I have never regretted buying it.

I regularly use the Swarovski ATS 65HD and ATS80HD with the 25-50 and 20-60 eyepieces in the course of volunteer work. I use the Swaro scopes in all weathers from brilliant sunshine to heavy rain. It is fair to say the Swaros are heavily used (perhaps even abused) by visitors where I volunteer and they take the use without any indication of trouble. The images are good although sometimes I feel the ATS65 feels a bit like looking down a tube - an experience I don't get with my Kowa or the bigger Swaro. Would my Kowa stand up to the same level of abuse? I don't know. Not because I have any doubt about it's robustness but because it is mine and I am not letting hundreds of visitors loose on it some of whom would not be as careful as I would wish. My Kowa feels well built but I am not taking the risk.

When I went to buy my scope I went out to buy a Swaro ATS 80HD as a consequence of my experience in my voluntary work. I did try Zeiss Diascopes but to my eyes there was no doubt the Kowa produced the brighter, sharper image and I preferred its ergonomics (certainly over the Diascope). I am not conscious that I take longer to focus on a subject with my Kowa than I do with a Swaro. In truth, I rarely use the coarse focus wheel on the Kowa because the fine wheel seems to work. I would be surprised if The Birders Store is currently retilling the older Kowa 20 - 60 eyepiece I would have thought they would be demonstrating the newer eyepiece - they were when I visited 18 months ago.

If I was buying again I would buy the Kowa again. Other birders would buy the Swaro. I am convinced that neither is a poor instrument just that one is preferred by some over the other. Go with whichever you prefer, use it and enjoy it.
 
of course, the means of focusing is another consideration when making a choice. The large helical single focus of the ATS scopes seem to function best when using the whole hand - fingers on top, thumb underneath. This is something i didn't pick up on for some time when i first had the 65mm.

I too rarely use the fast focus knob of the 883. Focusing on both scopes is fast and accurate, as you'd expect for the price - it just depends if you have a preference for dual or single systems
 
of course, the means of focusing is another consideration when making a choice. The large helical single focus of the ATS scopes seem to function best when using the whole hand - fingers on top, thumb underneath. This is something i didn't pick up on for some time when i first had the 65mm.

I too rarely use the fast focus knob of the 883. Focusing on both scopes is fast and accurate, as you'd expect for the price - it just depends if you have a preference for dual or single systems

Exactly.
 
Wolfbirder,

Not sure where in the midlands you are but you could try

www.focusopticsltd.co.uk

They are near Coventry. I have bought used stuff from Focus Optics and visited when I was looking at scopes. Very easy to deal with, in my experience.
 
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The Kowa, with its magnesium body, is probably slightly more delicate than the Swaro, and - while i have the ATS on a CF tripod and Sirui VA5 head (very lightweight), the Kowa is set up for estuaries and sea-watching, on aluminium legs and a Manfrotto 500 head - more stable, but heavier.
The ability to jack the 883 up to 96x with the 1.6 extender is really something when you have good light too.....
So, i would give serious consideration to what i wanted the scope for if i was starting again. I've put the Swaro into situations i'd baulk at taking the Kowa, and it's a robust, lightweight, fantastic instrument which i use a great deal.
There's no doubt in my mind that the 883, however, is one of the best one or two spotting scopes out there though.

That's a perfect summary IMO.The Kowa is from what I've seen just about the best big scope, and seems to suffer remarkably little from sample variation. That's a real bonus because chances are you'll get a good one if you actually buy it. The 65mm Swaro is perfect for any situation where a smaller scope is to be preferred. It works well on a lighter tripod, an important consideration IMO.

I'm still quite happy with my Nikon Fieldscopes, but if I had to switch scopes that's the combination I'd get. If I could only get one, I'd get the Swaro first. Weight DOES matter to me, a lot.

In the long run I'd also get a really small scope as well. I'm a sort of three scopes guy nowadays. I actually feel having one alpha scope (or two, or three ... ;)) is more important than using an alpha binocular for most purposes. There are many pretty good binoculars in the mid-price range nowadays, but only very few really good scopes. Most of the bargain scopes just don't cut it.

Hermann
 
I'd certainly agree with with that. Perhaps the higher mags widen the gulf between the 3-4 top line scopes and almost all the others. I'm not sure the attempts to fill the 'beta' grade in the scope market have been as successful as they have with binoculars.
 
Perhaps the higher mags widen the gulf between the 3-4 top line scopes and almost all the others. I'm not sure the attempts to fill the 'beta' grade in the scope market have been as successful as they have with binoculars.

This is certainly not true for the $1600 Nikon Monarch 82ED. One I recently tested had better optics (adjusted for aperture) than than all but one or two cherry samples of the six Kowa 883s and four Swarovski 95-ATX scopes I've tested and even the cherry Kowa and Swarovski scopes were no better than the Nikon, perhaps a little worse.
 
Hi Henry - of course, the Nikon at $1600 may be seen to be in the 'alpha' area, whatever that might mean. I just wondered if you knew if they were consistent, or whether the one you tested was a cherry too? I admit personally i've seen less variation QC-wise in Nikon products than some others, although haven't seen much of their scopes.
 
Also, to get a wide field zoom that roughly compares to the Kowa and Swarovski, an additional $550 must be ponied up. Now it’s a $2150 scope.
I just bought a new Kowa 883 w/ 25-60 for $2420.

Henry’s finding has been mentioned in other threads, and I await Henry’s review on the Monarch. I am a big fan of Nikon Fieldscopes and have two of them.
It would not surprise me (completely) if the latter Nikons hang with or exceed other premium scopes.
 
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